faith
January 7, 2006 by thinking girl
well, by now if you've been reading my posts at all, you'll know that I'm not religious. I was raised in the baptist church, and at about age 14 I started to have serious doubts about the validity of what I was hearing each Sunday. After a couple more years, I wasn't going anymore even to appease my parents on a regular basis, and this past christmas was my first on record that I did not attend christmas eve service. I've had enough, and I don't want anything to do with it anymore.That said, I've been having some interesting discussions on the subject of faith lately with two different friends. I'll briefly outline the positions: one position is that faith is misplaced and misguided at best and it's a bit foolish to believe in something that shows such a poverty of evidence in its support. The other is that personal experiences of faith/divinity are important to an understanding of faith, and if we have no personal experience of faith, who are we to criticize others who have.
In my Philosophy of Religion class this week, the instructor made the claim that belief is not something you can choose, but that it is something within you that you discover. I was very resistent to this claim; for me, faith is exactly choosing to believe in something despite the fact that there is an absence of evidence or even evidence to the contrary. I don't think it is sensible to speak of believing in fact: it doesn't make sense to say, "I believe in gravity" or "I believe in World War II." I think belief is something that you can hold until you examine the evidence thoroughly, or that you can choose to hold despite negative or absent evidence. Yet, when I brough up the subject with my friend who holds faith to be important, she thought it made sense to talk about discovering one's faith within.
When I began to think about my own experience with faith, it is very difficult for me. I was indoctrinated into christianity at a young age, and it's hard to remember how I felt about what I was learning at the time. What I remember more accurately was coming out of faith in christianity. I began to become disillusioned with church and the teachings of the bible as I got older and began to think about the miracles, and heaven, and angels, and the immaculate conception, and the trinity, and I wanted more evidence, more explanation. No one could answer me satisfactorily. I began to think about how the bible came to be, and how the people in my church claimed god had written it, that the men who wrote down the words were divinely inspired. I began to think about that, and how it was at least possible that these men had faked it, or at least had been under some sort of delusion that made them think they were listening to god. on and on it went, until I finally began to think of the stories in the bible as plainly that: stories. good stories mind you, but stories nonetheless.
I began to look into other religions, and see if I found the claims there to be more tenable. I looked at judaism and islam, neither of which I found to be very appealing considering the position of women being no better than that of christianity, and the strong reliance on divine inspiration/miracles. no thanks - I need evidence to believe that sort of thing. so I turned instead to eastern religions. buddhism required too much suffering, and I like to think of the purpose of life to be to live with joy as much as possible. also, the pesky problem of the buddhist version of reincarnation was insurmountable for me: reincarnation presupposes a continuation of selfhood, which is in direct conflict with the buddhist teachings of no-self and impermanence.
the belief system I can come closest to believing is taoism. basically, in taoism the focus is on nature, and one's own natural tendancies. why fight what is in your nature? go with the flow of the tao. the quintessential taoist handbook is the Tao Te Ching, attributed to the taoist master Lao-Tzu. it's a lovely and inspiring book full of wisdom and enigma; for eg: 19 says "Throw away holiness and wisdom, and people will be a hundred times happier. Throw away morality and justice, and people will do the right thing. Throw away industry and profit, and there won't be any thieves. If these three aren't enough, just stay at the centre of the circle and let all things take their course." It doesn't ask us to make any leaps of faith, to believe in nonsensical stories that lack evidence, or to suspend common sense.
anyway, not that I'm advocating taoism, but my point is that I don't know what to think about this idea that belief is something you discover. I discovered that christianity wasn't for me, because it didn't resonate with me on an intellectual level. somehow, taoism resonates with me and I feel comfortable with it. does that mean I was always taoist and I didn't know it until I read the Tao Te Ching? Or that I was always an agnostic with atheist leanings and didn't know it until I discovered that because no monotheistic religion made sense to me?
what do you guys think - is belief something we come to intellectually, or is it something that resides in us somehow? And if it is something that is within us, does that beg the question of the existence of god? (how did that belief get there in the first place?)
I read your post, found it very interesting, I wrote a whole bunch to you about it, then biffed it & deleted it accidently. I HATE when that happens. Will fix it tomorrow & have lots to say!!
XXX’s & OOO’s
Hi again.
This post really struck a cord w/me, because I’ve struggled w/Religiuos concepts as long as I can remember.
So much of your thots, I’ve had, also.
The word ‘believe’ is one I’ve given a particular good amount of thot to.
I find it particularlly frustrating to be given the pat statment by religious people, “I believe in God.” As if that justifies & explains everything.
I like to say to them, “Well, I used to believe in Santa Claus, to, but that didn’t make him real.”
This should lead to a discussion of the meaning of the word ‘believe’ & what the person that believes is implying.
Generally, they haven’t
given it much thot.
As far as I can see, to say you ‘believe in something,’ means that you have choosen to think that it is real(?). Or exists. Belief is not something you discover, it’s a choice. Faith may be something you discover, after you choose to believe. I haven’t any experience in that as relates to God. I can’t ‘believe’.
One of the problems of this, “belief in God’, is it usally means you are going along w/some religions Idea of God, & that in it’s self is not a factual thing.(I like the way you put it, “shows poverty of evidence in its support.”
So then, someone says,”belief is a thing you find in yourself” or The God you are believing in will somehow put a ‘knowing’ inside you.
(I’ve acually had people use this argument, “well, I just know,” ARRRGH!)
This also I know nothing about. But, one can’t have a logical discussion w/a person that believes in magic. It only makes their God sound more like Santa Claus then ever.
At one point in my life, I was trying to be a Christian ‘honestly’ & was allowed to teach sunday school classes. I had a class composed of high school students. We had a very open & enlightning discussion on the subject of ‘belief’. (AS we did w/all subjects in that class)
When I later, tried to have the same discussion w/adults, I was treated as a heretic. Go figure.
One of the many reasons I’m not a Christian, but that is another story.
Is It is right to say, “if you don’t have any experience w/’Faith’ you can’t criticize or dicuss it”?
That is true if faith is magic or just happens.
Those people should be pinned down & made to clarify what exactly they mean by ‘faith’.
Religions or sects w/in religions love to have all these exclusivse & secret meanings to words. It is part of the indoctrination, This way the leaders can tell you how you feel about issues & other people outside of the sect can not possible understand, right?
When I taught religious classes inside of my ’sect’, I vowed to try to never ‘teach’, discuss, anything I was not 100% sure of. It was my own moral code of ethics.
Consequently, I had to examine my own notions & opinions.
You know, Thinking girl(& you really are a thinking girl) I have lots of respect for you for having the moxy to question & want to know the truth about this stuff. To me that is the clearest sign of an intellegent mind. & I love what you say about Christianity not resonating w/you on an intellectual level. That is exactly my thoughts on it.
Becoming a humanist or thinking in those terms is how I approach these issues now. & I have to say I’m very at peace w/this.
The concept of ‘God’ was the hardest for me to reason out. & I recently had an insight on that cunnundrum. (I’m thinking at this moment to do a post on it).
I love this discussion, but I think I’d better sign off.
Many XXX”s & OOO”s
I have a belief in God, it’s just not specific to any religion. Sure, I’ve grown up as a Catholic…and married into the United Church, but I’ve come to realize that I enjoy experiencing different faith practices. I’ll attend a mass here, a service there, a concert here. It’s all what I make it myself, rather than trying to follow one specific religion.
Call it strange, but I really do think that my faith keeps me centred at work, rather than getting absorbed into the negativity that can overtake a person. Praying has a strange effect to keep me from becoming affected on those that I deal with everyday…
thanks for your comments guys.
I wonder how I would feel about faith if I did have some sort of personal experience that confirmed something I have rejected because there is a lack of evidence to support it. I certainly have experienced esoteric aspects of religious services, but it isn’t enough to sustain a true belief.
hmmm. well, if I ever have a personal experience of the divine, I’ll let you know. maybe you’ll think I’m nuts. Maybe not.
I’ll start by admitting that I’m one of the friends Jen was talking about, who thinks that faith is somewhat
foolish”. To be more accruate, I think that faith is actually something that’s beneath us as human beings.
Ideally, a belief you hold is something you’ve decided on after considering it carefully, based on your experiences with whatever that belief may be. Realistically, most people use their belief as a crutch, exactly because they don’t need to think about it at all.
It’s easy to accuse me of being less than humam, or robotic, since I don’t buy the whole “faith” thing. I’m not waiting for explicit evidence of something before I throw my hat in the ring, but it’d be helpful if there weren’t a flood of contradictory evidence (I’m thinking of the Bible, as one example). For people to believe so fully in something in that way is, to me, a convenient delusion.
I won’t dispute anybody’s chosen religion, but I would dispute their reason for choosing it. I’m wholeheartedly against religions as institutions, but I do support spirituality on an individual basis. It’s only natural to think of something bigger than yourself, maybe, but it’s unnatural to get that idea from a cabal who is only seeking to further themselves while telling you how to live.
in class, we also watched a video of a lecture given by Sam Harris. One of his claims is that religious moderates are dangerous, because they are held in place by taboos that restrict criticism and analysis of other people’s religions. He says it is impossible to truly respect someone else’s religion if you really believe something that is conflicting. controversial and politically incorrect, yes, but I think there’s something to this. Comments?
Of course , thinking girl, that
is alot like what I meant when I said that; “Religions or sects love to have exclusive & secret meanings to words. This way the leaders can tell you how to feel about issues. Other people outside the ’sect’ can not possiblely understand.”
See? You feel ‘let in’ on the secrets of the particular religion.
L>T, you said that should be made to clarify what exactly they mean by ‘faith’. I think this is one of the issues in this discussion. We are actually talking about three different things: faith, belief and (organized) religion, and sometimes mixing them up.
First of all, I have to say that although raised Catholic, I can’t say I was ever really practicing. Nor do I adhere to any other religion. I don’t believe in God as an interventionist entity or a personalized entity. But I do think that there is more than meets to eye. Many people have dropped organized religion, but maintained a spiritual life. Actually, no one I know who believes in God actually believe what’s written in the Bible.
As for the opening question: I don’t agree that belief is something that comes from within. There is a choice (or a non-choice) involved. Well, maybe not always: young children don’t chose to believe in Santa. But let’s stick to consenting adults. I chose to believe some things and disbelieve others. This choice is not always conscious; for some things, it could be out of habit or even laziness. In other cases, there is a good deal of reflection behind it.
But, for me at least, faith goes deeper than that. It’s a belief that is not grounded in reflection but in feeling. In need. Believing is holding something true. Faith involves trust. This doesn’t mean a disregard for proof, but a willingness to believe in something that, for us, cannot be proved or disproved. What the Bible says happened or didn’t can be proved or disproved. The existence of something beyond what we can, for now, perceive can’t. Faith is belief not because of “objective” facts, but because you fell it is true – for you.
Although she died more than a year ago, I feel my fiancée is still with me. My faith tells me there is something beyond what we see as physical life. I know it could just be wishful thinking, that I could be wrong. But I cannot help be believe that (and did so even before her death). It is not reasoned – although I sometime try to – it is not a choice. As such, it is faith and not a simple belief.
Similarly, the belief that there is no afterlife or that reasoning or science can explain everything is a form of faith. You don’t chose to believe in basing your outlook on a need for evidence. It comes from within.
Talking about the Bible, there’s a question I like to put to people who are practicing Christians: why is it that, according to the Scriptures, Jesus never said he was the son of God, but always said the son of man?
Marc, i don’t think that faith, belief & organized religion is Not mixed up. #1 organized religion uses ‘faith’ & ‘belief’ to it’s advantage.
& #2 faith & belief are both based on feeling, not logic.
Nothing wrong w/that I say, untill emotions are used for justifacation instead of logic.
Case in point:
Santa Claus. Santa Claus is conjured up to create good feelings, esp. in children. Children will profess to believe in Santa even when logic tells them other wise.
Reliion, then. How many times have religious people used particular religions to hate & kill other human beings when logic should of told them otherwise? What role did belief & faith have in their actions? More then logic or love for mankind.
& your own situation. What is driving you to have faith that your fiancee is somehow with you? You said yourself, “Feelings” That is all fine, because there is a place for everything. But, what is true about your ‘faith’ & what is wishful thinking? What will come along to cause the ghost of your fiancee to go away? Or will you live the rest of your life hanging on to a ‘faith’?
I am not trying to be cruel or thoughtless in feelings, but these issues of faith, belief & the destructive powers of religion(esp. in these times) are important & must be examined Out in the open.
P.S. Christians will tell you that JESUS is the son of man but, also the son of God. The idea is that JESUS is the gap, the bridge between man & God. I could agree, because I feel that JESUS preached the higher consciencness of LOVE. ‘Unconditional Love.’
It is Christian religions insistence in being exclusive, & the only way…
I was not saying that faith, belief & organized religion are being mixed up in general, just in the present discussion. Some people will reject faith based on belief in what organized religions say.
“What role did belief & faith have in their actions?” None. Hence my wanting to distinguish them in a discussion about faith.
What is true about my faith and what is wishful thinking? I don’t know. That is the point. There is no way for my to know. Hence it is a matter of faith. What “drives” this faith cannot be analysed; it comes from within. And I’m not talking about a ghost or any manifestation, just a feeling that she is somehow there. And it is not something I’m ‘hanging on to’. It is just a part of me.
I agree that these questions are important and should be discussed. But I have a problem of mixing a discussion of where faith or belief comes from, and one about the good and bad aspects of organized religion.
Of course faith, relief & religion are mixed up. They always have been.
Maybe you don’t know what is true & what is wishful thinking, but don’t you want to know?
Don’t you want to know? What is the point of faith?
Do you think mystical faith esists w/out religion? It is nice to think that certain things exsist…UFO’s, Bigfoot, ghosts, etc…but what is the point?
P.S. faith, BELIEF, & religion. (1st sentence)
Hi Marc Andre,
it’s nice to see you again. my deepest sympathies on the loss of your fiancee, and thank you for sharing your own personal account of what faith means to you.
You are quite right that in this discussion, I and others have talked about faith and belief in terms of religion. For me, that’s how I relate to faith and belief, because that is how I was raised. When I speak of faith, I am talking about religious faith, rather than the normal type of everday faith we all must have to undertake the uncertain task of getting out of bed each morning. Faith in the more general way of speaking also interests me - how it is that people keep going through difficult times, how people remain sane when trouble chases them at every turn. It takes faith to believe that scientists are telling us the truth about things like black holes, DNA, etc. because most of us haven’t actually seen these things and never will. It takes faith to do any number of small everyday tasks: have relationships with other people, cross the street, turn on the car, entre a conversation, love someone, start a new job, undertake a project. While these normal types of faith also interest me, they do less so than religious faith, which seems to defy all reason. At least we have prior experience to go on that when we get out of bed and leave our homes we will end up relatively fine at the end of the day, safe and warm in our beds. In these terms, I have lots of faith. Religious faith involves something else entirely: believing in a thing under circumstances that normally we would judge insufficient.
The reasons for this type of faith are what interests me currently. Marc Andre, you have expressed that you have a personal experience that propels your faith, not in a religious doctrine per se, but in a more general way that there is an afterlife, and that your fiancee is still with you in a sense that is not physically evident but esoteric. These are just the sorts of expressions I am interested in, and thanks for sharing that. I may feel differently about certain aspects of non-physical spiritual existence if I were to have a similar experience. Since I have not, I do take the common logical rejection of religious doctrines.
I think you have expressed it well, faith is personal, and so an expression someone else might find convincing would not be so for me. Some would say that I experience reasons to have faith in a “higher power” or god all the time, because I continue to exist at all, that I have had difficult times and come out fine, that I have survived physical dangers, that I have witnessed the abundance of nature’s perfections. I say, I need more. and until I get the type of personal experience of the divine that would be meaningful for me, I will remain analytically, logically, and firmly agnostic.
thanks to all for making an interesting discussion.
Interesting questions, L>T.
Do I want to know? Actually, I feel no need to. I have faith, and I know that there is no way for me to know (in the current state of things). But maybe one day I will want to.
What is the point of faith? I don’t know. Then again, who says there has to be one? If faith (in my point of view) is something that comes from within, a viceral need, I’m not sure I could ever say what the point is. It is not a choice, therefore it has no (conscious) justification. There are perhaps some deep-rooted psychological reasons behind this need. Or it might just be that there is some truth to what is believed
Actually, I would say that the point of faith is to be able to believe something without always having to have proof.
Do I think mystical faith exists without religion? Yes.
Of course, our personal faith might be influenced by our cultural background (of which religion is an important part, at least in this neck of the woods) — including our rejection of aspects of this background. But I don’t think my faith falls into any specific religion. And if we take the point of view of human evolution, don’t you think that faith came about before there was any religion?
I agree with you, TG, “religious faith involves something else entirely: believing in a thing under circumstances that normally we would judge insufficient.” In that sense, it is interesting to see how much of that belief is choice.
I would think most of it is finding a vessel in which one’s personal (mystical) faith can fit/thrive. It is a matter of comfort. Most people prefer not to have to dig too much into philosophical issues; but they still need to have a frame in which to live their belief in something else, and religion — for better and for worst — provides that.
thinking girl, it’s always great to discuss these things with you. This is how we learn, right? It’s good to have ones own ‘belief system’ put to the test. In tradional(fudamental) type religious settings this dosen’t happen much, as you are just expected to go with the program.
Of course you know I am also agnostic, and lean very strongely toward a Humanist philosophy. this seems to be the ‘belief system’ that I funnel my information thro.
I am interested in that phrase ‘belief system’ It was something I used to hear at church alot.
Do you have any info on the phrase? Like where did it come from & when did it come into use in philosophy?
Also, I love the way you write, you are talented in putting together something understandable & can put a point across well.
Marc, I hope i didn’t insult you in any way by asking personal questions. It’s just that a discussion should be probing & honest & I like people to explain why they feel a certain way. you come across as sincere & not afraid to admit what you don’t know. Good qualitys in anyone, Also, you definetly are a ‘thinking’ person.
Chow! guys, Am going to go work on my new post about GOD.
Don’t worry L>T, you didn’t insult me.
Marc Andre - I agree, sometimes it isn’t necessary to pick all this stuff apart piece by piece and examine its strength or weakness. My personal theory is that faith came about because humans are curious, and we need some sort of coherent explanation for things we do not understand. In the case of religion, I just think we have gone beyond the need to understand some of the things that religion prescribes for us, but there is still a need to make sense of things like what happens when we die.
I’ll have to think about that one, l>t, and do a little bit of research into where “belief system” came from.
thanks for the support, and for contributing to the discussions I bring up. It’s a real test to me to put forward an idea, even tentatively, and figure out how I feel about it and what I think about it through these sorts of discourses, and developing analytical skills. I appreciate all comments as they help me do this better all the time!
i think belief is different for different people - some people never *think* about it - they go with what they’ve been taught - and the only extent they think about it is to confirm what they already believe - i.e. reading books that never challenge their beliefs - but written by people they agree with- for some, i think there is a strong emotional appeal - i feel a lot of what you described in your post - i suspect because i am a thinker - like you seem to be - not that it is better or worse than any other kind of person…
i don’t label my beliefs one way or another - cause to label them is to narrow them and the possibilities of this being a much more complex and beautiful world than words can describe…
thanks for the input, Mike. I like your thought, that naming a belief only serves to make it narrow and not really your own. It has been an interesting discussion, and I think I’m beginning to understand the idea that we don’t choose our beliefs, but rather, we find out what truly matter so us bit by bit and figure out what works in chorus with that as we experience it. I think you’re absolutely right in saying that some people don’t even bother to question their faith, just accept what they were taught. That is sad in my mind; it is better to allow what is within you to define your life, rather than allowing an outward force like religion form your life.
Hi thinking girl,
Good for you. I enjoyed your discussion about faith. My grandfather was a Baptist and Taoist scholar. His beliefs, of course, pre-dated the modern “zionized-christianity” (e.g. Kay Arthur of Precept Ministries, et al) we have today that worships Christ in second place and worships the political holy State of Israel in first place. If you care to, please visit http://www.christianzionism.blogspot.com
Keep thinking about faith, that’s the only way to stop becoming a member of the Sheeple’s Church.
-agoodshepherd-