Feminism Weekender - Social Constructionism
November 5, 2006 by thinking girl
I think it’s time. I think I can get back to it now. It’s been a while, but I think I’m ready. This might be long…
I talk a lot on this blog about the social construction of gender. But, what does that really mean? It’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, especially for this one course I’m taking, the History of Sexuality. It’s mostly based around Michel Foucault’s book of the same name (Vol.1), and some of the myriad responses to it. Foucault wrote another couple of volumes in this planned series of 6, but didn’t get to them all before his untimely death. Vol.1 is definitely the most widely-read, and serves as an introduction to ideas he wanted to later expand upon in the rest of the series. I’ll probably pick up the others at some point, but this first one is fascinating.
The main point of the book is that sexuality, and in particular homosexuality, is historically and discursively constructed. He argues that as forms of disciplinary control rose up in society (things like medicine, prison, school systems, and the church), sexuality became something rigid and binary. In the 18th century, a discourse about sex and sex acts had begun with the christian pastoral tradition that emphasized talking endlessly about sex in order to find out the TRUTH about oneself. Sexuality was placed at the core of one’s identity, the most private secret self one has, and so it began to be that what one did sexually was constitutive of who one was. Confessing this truth was paramount, whether to one’s priest or one’s doctor, and the regulation of sexuality began, whereby people began to be treated by their doctors and psychiatrists, prosecuted by the law, and children monitored in schools and at home, for their sexual behaviour. The word ‘homosexual’ was coined in the late 1800s by a psychiatrist, and ‘heterosexual’ followed some decades later (after WWI). And so here we are, with a discourse about sex that has created two sexualities and privileged one over the other. I’m not sure when bisexuality became part of the mix, but today almost everyone identifies as one of homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual, and holds that label to be something natural that lies at the very centre of their identity and tells the deepest truth about them.
(That’s not all Foucault has to say in this book, but that is the main argument from which all others flow, and that’s as much as I want to talk about today to inform the rest of this post.)
So, what can we think about this argument? It’s pretty convincing to me. The ramifications of this argument are pretty deep and interesting for me, and spread beyond sexuality to other classifications of identity. I think we are all comfortable with the idea that class is socially constructed - when we speak of someone being ‘born poor’, we don’t mean it in a biological sense, but a social one. But what about other determinants of identity? How about disability - socially determined? I would argue a resounding ‘yes’ - if the environment was right, including ramps and low access tables and desks and public transportation that easily accomodated wheelchairs or walkers, would anyone really be disabled? Obviously, no. What about race? Again, a definite ‘yes’, especially as studies show minimal genetic and biological differences between people of different races, and the long-held knowledge that all races of people came out of Africa. (Did you know that people of all skin colours have the same amount of melanocytes - the cells in our skin that produce skin pigment? The difference is only in how much melanin is produced by those cells.) Knowing this, can anyone really justify such bitter hatred and marginalization of non-white people? I mean, SERIOUSLY.
I want to turn now to gender, and give you an argument about the discursive nature of not just ‘man’ and ‘woman’ but also ‘male’ and ‘female’. People are much more resistant to this idea, that gender/sex is not naturally or biologically constituted - even those who are familiar and accepting of the idea that ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ are socially constructed. Even in my course, where most of the students have studied gender theory before and undoubtedly come up against this argument, people had a hard time with the idea that ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are not natural categories - or at the very least, they didn’t know quite what to do with that information.
Can someone tell me exactly what a ‘man’ is? A ‘woman’? I’m sure you’ll know I won’t accept the answer that men are people who display masculinity and women are people who display femininity. We can simply look to not only obvious counter-examples, like transvestites, but to simple examples of people who just don’t play those roles, ‘normal’ everyday people who aren’t such extreme examples, women who don’t act in feminine ways and men who don’t act in masculine ways. It seems silly, doesn’t it, that the identity of ‘man’ and ‘woman,’ something so very basic, would be defined only by things like clothing, mannerisms, and activities - things that any person could readily adopt and display. These social behaviours are often classified as “gender” rather than “sex” - we like that distinction, right? We like to think that there is something more basic upon which we base these social arguments.
Don’t we need something more solid, something rooted in science or nature - biology, perhaps - to explain what a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ is? Does it have to do with genitalia or reproductive organs? Chromosomes? Well, sorry, but no. Genitalia is an uncertain peg on which to rest gender/sex identity. A fair percentage of live births are intersex or have ambiguous genitalia. (numbers vary, it’s hard to tell exactly because of the nature of the problem, but one stat I read was about 1.7%.) Experts say there are 5 types of genitalia: female (vagina and ovaries), male (penis and testes), male pseudo-hermaphrodite (penis and ovaries), female pseudo-hermaphrodite (vagina and testes), and hermaphrodite (penis and vagina, with either ovaries or testes, but not usually both). Most parents, on the advice of their doctors, have ambiguous genitalia surgically altered, which can present problems later on in the form of identity crises due to imbalanced hormones or the child actually finding this information out, but some “conditions” - such as undescended testes, or the presence of both a penis and ovaries - cannot be easily detected. And this is a totally “natural” “condition” to be born with. Also, what do we do with people who have to have part of their genitalia or reproductive organs removed? Do people who have had hysterectomies stop being “women”? Do people who have had testicular cancer stop being “men”? What about transsexuals, who have surgically constructed genitalia? Where do they fall?
Chromosomes are no easier a signifier. Chromosomal variations do occur - there are, in my understanding, many combinations (NOT 2!): XO (female with Turner’s Syndrome), XX (female), XXXY and XXY (male with Klinefelter’s Syndrome), XY (male, plus two other types of XY with either complete or partial gonadal dysgenesis). So we can’t exactly count on chromosomes to be our signifier, either.
While it is true that most people born do have typical characteristics of male or female, it is also true that these categories are very much socially - and medically - constructed. This is also not really a recent historical trend - before the advent of surgical “correction” of these “conditions”, hermaphrodites were given the option of which gender they wanted to live as, or they were left alone to determine their own behaviour.
The definition of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ has changed over time. It is common in conversation: “women these days are more independent”; “men nowadays don’t want to settle down.” (A conversation I had with a friend the other day. And, by the way, she blamed the second on the first.) Interesting when you think about it, it’s so obvious that ‘women’ have changed since even just a generation ago, but we still try to define ‘woman’ in a biologically stable and ahistorical manner.
I think some of the trouble my classmates had with this concept was that they then wanted to “get rid of” or dissolve gender - they saw gender as something that didn’t really exist, and were quite upset about this. How fascinating! If we can’t pin something on biology or science, then it doesn’t truly exist! Once again the ugly habit of modern western society to put all its chips in the basket of science. At best, the role science has in determining gender is one of identifying biological trends, nothing more. Society does the rest. But that doesn’t mean that just because something is socially constructed, it doesn’t exist in a very real way that has implications for real people’s lives. And so none of this doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for solidarity. In fact, it kind of means there is room for more.
I think the usefulness in identifying the socially constructed nature of gender - and sexuality, race, disability - is that there IS nothing concrete about it, no biological destiny we are tied to. While we may not be fully free to determine the social categories to which we belong, we are free to resist them and cross borders and boundaries into other spaces - even create new spaces, third and fourth and fifth and sixth spaces by which new discourses and new identities and alliances can be formed. I find this information liberating! Don’t you?
I think I see what you mean. I think the usefulness in identifying the socially constructed nature of gender - and sexuality, race, disability - is that there IS nothing concrete about it, no biological destiny we are tied to. I have always thought of gender and sexuality mostly as hormonal levels more then anything i guess. In a way it is more open-ended then that, right? (hmmm, I not sure about that way of putting it) I see more & more traditional ways of thinking have to be examined
& applied to the new world that is always out there. New ways of thinking seem to be frightning to people. do we have so little faith in our own abilities to come to reasonable conclusions?
For most of us, having been raised on the basis of ’solid, objective, Western science’, it is extremely disconcerting to realize just how much of medicine is based on normative judgments as opposed to objective, scientific ones. Nowhere is this probably more true than in the case of gender which you’ve just described. Since the division of our social world into male and female forms the bedrock of our internal identities and all of our interactions with others, I can see how this knowledge would be, at best, confusing, and at worst, deeply disturbing.
Fascinating post.
hi L>T
thanks for your comment. One of the things I find interesting about the discovery that sexuality is historically constructed is this: when we talk about homo- or hetero-sexuality, is it that we are talking about a category that has risen up in response to people’s sexual behaviour, a word we’ve invented to name a sexual practice? If so, then why is it that what a person does in private must form the root of his/her identity? Aren’t we so much more than our sex acts? I understand that there is more going on here with heteronormativity (the presumption of universal heterosexuality in our social structures and institutions, like marriage, the family, etc.), and that gay politics is a reaction to the systems of power in society that have marginalized gay people.
what about people who have desires they don’t act upon? are we comfortable classifying them as one thing or another? I have always hated it when people say things like, “he’s gay - deep down - and he doesn’t know it.”
Then there’s the claim within gay political movements that gay people are “born gay” and “can’t help who they are” - this I find interesting. I think in terms of RIGHTS, it is easier to claim universal rights when you can base something on biology - something that is completely out of your control. But why should this be? ‘Rights’ covers more than biology - it also covers choice. I also think that this kind of talk of homosexuality being biological is kind of dangerous - as we know, scientists have tried to find a genetic or physical reason for homosexuality. I remember it used to be thought of as a chemical imbalance in the brain or a hormonal imbalance, like you talk about L>T. I think now they’ve moved on to genetics, trying to identify a ‘gay gene’. This makes me nervous, because it seems to me that someone is going to try to come up with a genetic therapy to ‘cure’ homosexuality (likely a very expensive daily pill or monthly shot, if Big Pharm has any say) - and when we’re actually talking about a category that has been discursively constructed through history, that is really chilling. Society has created homosexuality as a whole set of behaviours, and even though that is born out of people’s inclinations and desires, it seems completely ridiculous to now try to remove what we have created. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but….
What is it to be gay, or straight? How do we recognize these desires, proclivities, tendancies? Would more of us be gay if we were raised in a society where heterosexuality was not assumed, where homosexuality was easily accepted, where there were no negative ramifications for being gay?
hi ballgame
thanks. I find this kind of stuff very much fascinating. It’s this kind of postmodern thought that really gets me going. What if we were just free to be whatever we wanted to be, no strings attached? We could sleep with whomever we wanted without having a label attached. We could dress in any way we wanted, without it signifying anything to anybody except that’s how we wanted to express ourselves that day. We could do anything we wanted, and it wouldn’t mean anything about WHO WE ARE. (well, I don’t want to get carried away, I’m not advocating criminal behaviour here…
I find the term ‘objective western science’ interesting. I don’t think of western science as objective at all. I think western science as a discipline is only one way of knowing something, and it is imperialist in rejecting other forms of knowledge, setting up experts and monopolizing and legitimizing certain kinds of knowledge and certain kinds of people. Were you around for my post on women in math and science? I think you might have shown up after that. Anyway, my point being that western science is very much about white male knowledge, and carries on the tradition of white male thought.
I think the people who are truly tolerant would not try to “cure” being gay, but how many tolerant people are out there? So many think homosexuality unnatural, sinful, and/or at best weird. And, as far as I’ve read their arguments, these people also have no statistics or logical arguments to back it up. Again, the whole credit/faith thing comes up.
I only remember this vaguely, but I think once you talked about the fear that if people understand more about the human genome, parentsmight eventually have the option of “genetically editing”, or at least aborting, children that have unwanted traits. Don’t get me wrong, I think understanding biology is a wonderful thing for curing diseases, ect. But where would it end? Perhaps my imagination is taking me too far, but what would the world be like without diversity?
Apparently there is still alot to be learned about human sexuality from all the different angles. noticed that people are a lot more tolerent then they used to be of “alternative life styles” esp. young people.
Hi Jess,
I know, I am really saddened by claims that homosexuality is sinful or immoral or deviant. I just don’t understand how people can think that way! I really honestly can’t wrap my head around it. What people do sexually is nobody’s business but theirs, and it isn’t a point for criticism or villification. Reading lately about celebrities who are being outed, like that cutie pie TR Knight from my favourite show Grey’s Anatomy, and now Doogie Howser, it just makes me sad that there have been circumstances that have forced them to publicly talk about their sexuality. That’s not fair! Why is it so important to people to know the sexual preferences of every person they come into contact with - or even watch on TV? Makes no sense to me.
I’m with you on the concerns about reproductive technology. I hesitate to use the word “foeticide”, because I think that is a slippery slope into admitting that abortion is murder and I don’t want to go there, but choosing to abort fetuses based on traits like gender and sexuality and other arbitrary characterisitics when you would otherwise keep the fetus and give birth to it, to me that is really morally questionable. I even think that aborting fetuses that have non-life threatening disabilities/genetic abnormalities (like Down’s Syndrome) is problematic. I just don’t know, I don’t much like the world we inhabit these days. When do we draw the line? Is the inevitable result of postmodernism and relativism that there is no line?
L>T
yeah, it does seem like the younger generations are more liberal and open-minded. But then you go to school with kids a generation younger than you, and you come to find they are just as misogynistic and homophobic and classist as ever. And it shocks me even more, because I thought we were getting somewhere. Seems to me that my generation is the one that is really advanced in accepting all kinds of folks - the younger one from me still needs to grow up a bit more in a lot of cases.
but we’re coming along…
T.G.:Yes, exactly! I was worried about appearing paranoid, but you expressed the idea eloquently- thank you. Grey’s is also my favorite show- so awful that actors (like Washington) will turn on each other that way; and worse, society craves “uncovering” celebs’ personal beliefs.
L>T: Very good point. I can understand this, belonging to the younger generations myself. What’s sad is that people I know seem to be creating MORE stereotypes and catchphrases for differences in race and sexuality. I’ve occasionally been accused of being backward because I sometimes inadvertantly use a word with a slanderous synonym- in its regular context. I think they are the ones being backward by coming up with more crazy generalizations- when former generations have worked so hard to undo the damage of the past.
Cont. My close friends have learned not to be jugmental of minorities- at least around me. But I strongly dislike being accused of not being “relaxed” or “modern” enough around stereotypical assumptions- whether they are in books, movies, or speech. What can they be thinking? These attitudes are incredibly blind and narrow; but I often feel I “have” to shut up and deal with them because I don’t want to seem too odd- which makes me feel guilty. A vicious cycle.
oh, yeah Jess - I was SO disappointed in Isaiah Washington over that whole thing. He was so totally my favourite, what a sexy guy! but anyway, I was really bummed out by his behaviour, it’s so uncalled for. He’s still hot as hell, but what a shame he acted out that way.
About the slanderous slang - I know what you mean! I try to think about everything I say now, what meaning does that have, is that going to hurt someone’s feelings, am I being racist or sexist or homophobic in saying that, everything. I recently stopped saying ’schmuck’ and ‘punk’! I don’t even like to say, “gypped” anymore! the poor gypsies have it hard enough! when you start to think about these common slang terms, it really is astounding how colloquial terms (like around here, ’stick to your knitting’ is commonly used to mean, mind your own business, and I just hate that!) really are all about reinforcing power relations. fascinating.
Feminists claim there are no biological differences between the sexes. This seems a rather pointless statement because there are obviously physiological, behavioural and intellectual differences between males and females. These differences are what really matter and although it may be true that in a small percentage of cases, boundaries cross over, in the main, our choices are influenced by what we can do well, rather than what society has imposed upon us. There may be some people who are channeled down a particular path according to societal pressure, but I would argue that this type of personality will always allow themselves to be moulded by others, even in a gender neutral society
Barry
I construct a thorough and well-thought out post, and all you have to say is that it’s pointless? Well, perhaps it’s pointless to you because it doesn’t affect you (I don’t know), but it’s certainly not pointless to many other MILLIONS of people. This is not a new theory I dreamed up - it’s pretty much the backbone of most social theory around identity. Funny how you took issue only with the part of my argument having to do with gender. If you can accept social explanations for differences between races, levels of ability, etc. , why not gender? Because you have too much invested in the notion that “men” and “women” are a certain way? You really need to step outside yourself for a minute or two and consider what it might be like to have to live someone else’s life for a while.
well, feminists don’t claim that there are “no” biological differences between “male” and “female” people. (and painting all feminists with the same brush is not such a good idea; there are many different kinds of feminists with many different kinds of beliefs.) What I am saying here is that while biological differences between people exist, those differences are not enough to make sweeping claims about what “men” and “women” are capable of, what they are like, what they can do, etc. I am also saying that the starkly oppositional roles that have been attributed to “sex differences” cannot be attributed to “sex differences” since “sex” is not a binary category. Everybody is different - every single person is biologically different from every other person. We all have unique genetic makeups.
Since there are not enough biological differences between “sexes” to warrant the vastly differential treatment and roles “men” and “women” experience, and since those roles and treatment serve social goals having to do with power relations, the only logical conclusion is that these roles are not based in biology but are based in society.
When I talk about social pressure here, I don’t mean stuff like peer pressure, or advertisment brainwashing consumerism, or the like. I mean insidious, ubiquitous, institutionalized norms that stream people into various categories that organize society in a certain way and upon which all social structures are built. This is no conspiracy theory, Barry. This is reality. And it’s been going on for so long that we just lap it up like milk and honey and don’t even think twice about what we’re putting in our mouths - and the mouths of our children. I’m not saying that this stuff is necessarily consciously organized by some old white stuffed shirts sitting around a board room table and dreaming up ways to subordinate women. (Although that sounds a bit like a pornography industry board room to me…
I’m saying, rather, that this stuff is so dangerous because it is subconsciously built into the way we think about HUMAN “NATURE” - these roles are normalized in such a way that we think they are natural.
do you get it?
I’m afraid I don’t get it. I have experienced “built in” thinking in both men and women, not just one way traffic as you are saying. I have been on the receiving end of female stereotypical thinking on male behaviour, in the same way that males stereotype females. In fact I would say that in recent years, television advertising producers usually portray men as incompetent fools and women as dynamic, focused and extremely capable. Regarding the differences between the sexes, you said in an earlier post that, “Differences between men and women are ROLE-BASED - not biologically based.” Ok, so let’s look at the PHYSIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SEXES and perhaps you can clarify your position on how these differences should, or should not, affect career choices. Here we go…
People vary in their physical makeup. Each body reacts differently to varying degrees of physical stress, and no two bodies react exactly the same way to the same physical stress. The following paragraphs describe the most important physical and physiological differences between men and women.
SIZE
The average 18-year-old man is 70.2 inches tall and weighs 144.8 pounds, whereas the average woman of the same age is 64.4 inches tall and weighs 126.6 pounds. This difference in size affects the absolute amount of physical work that can be performed by men and women.
MUSCLES
Men have 50 percent greater total muscle mass, based on weight, than do women. A woman who is the same size as her male counterpart is generally only 80 percent as strong. Therefore, men usually have an advantage in strength, speed, and power over women.
FAT
Women carry about 10 percentage points more body fat than do men of the same age. Men accumulate fat primarily in the back, chest, and abdomen; women gain fat in the buttocks, arms, and thighs. Also, because the center of gravity is lower in women than in men, women must overcome more resistance in activities that require movement of the lower body.
BONES
Women have less bone mass than men, but their pelvic structure is wider. This difference gives men an advantage in running efficiency.
HEART SIZE AND RATE
The average woman’s heart is 25 percent smaller than the average man’s. Thus, the man’s heart can pump more blood with each beat. The larger heart size contributes to the slower resting heart rate (five to eight beats a minute slower) in males. This lower rate is evident both at rest and at any given level of submaximal exercise. Thus, for any given work rate, the faster heart rate means that most women will become fatigued sooner than men.
FLEXIBILITY
Women generally are more flexible than men.
LUNGS
The lung capacity of men is 25 to 30 percent greater than that of women. This gives men still another advantage in the processing of oxygen and in doing aerobic work such as running.
RESPONSE TO HEAT
A woman’s response to heat stress differs somewhat from a man’s. Women sweat less, lose less heat through evaporation, and reach higher body temperatures before sweating starts. Nevertheless, women can adapt to heat stress as well as men. Regardless of gender, people with a higher level of physical fitness generally better tolerate, and adapt more readily to, heat stress than do less fit individuals. END
Barry
And do you really think that these physical differences can or should account for the widespread social discrimination that “women” face?
Sure, “men” and “women” have average physical differences; I’m not disputing that. What I’m saying, again, is so what? None of these things make sense as to why “women” experience oppression based on their gender and men do not. And of course, I don’t really need to point out (but I will anyway) that not ALL “men” or ALL “women” fall into these “averages” you’ve laid out for us. So what’s the deal with them? Just “freaks of nature”? Well, they are “natural” - why should we ignore those people whose “natural” body makeup differs from the “average”? Because it doesn’t suit your purposes of maintaining patriarchal domination of “women”? They are, after all, physiological/biological COUNTEREXAMPLES to your argument!
THERE IS NO PHYSIOLOGICAL OR BIOLOGICAL BASIS FOR OPPRESSION. Period. Oppression is social. It is widespread institutionalized subjugation of one group to their binary “opposite.” There is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for oppression. Even if there were significant biological or physiological bases for gender/racial/disability/sexual/class -based oppression, would it be ok then? Of course not. So why on earth are you defending something that WE - SOCIETY - have created? Because you have something (like, maybe, your whole life?) invested in maintaining the status quo, perhaps? Come ON.
And as for your opening paragraph, about “built-in thinking” - get real. seriously, show me some proof that this has anything to do with biology. We are socially TAUGHT to think in “stereotypical” ways about people who have been socially categorized into binary groups according to arbitrary and minor physiological/biological differences. Besides, couldn’t we just as easily teach our children to look past these minor differences and respect everyone equally? Do these biological differences mean we absolutely must treat “men” and “women” differently? racial groups? the disabled? gay, lesbian, and bisexual people? Come ON.
Finally, the argument that “patriarchy hurts men, too” (i.e., that men experience gender oppression too so women should stop complaining about it) - doesn’t fly here. Go peddle that shit somewhere else.
Now, I am just about finished with this BS. As I said to you before, you’re welcome to come back here with an open mind, or not at all. I’m not about to beat my head up against a brick wall talking to someone who has absolutely no desire to change his sexist ways. I’m not sure why you keep coming back here only to have your arguments torn to shreds by someone who is obviously more skilled at arguing than you are. I don’t mind debate, and I don’t mind when someone simply has a different point of view from me that is based on legitimate differences in philosophy. That’s not what we have going on here, Barry. Look, I’m trying to eliminate negativity from my life. I don’t mind helping someone to understand a different point of view, but I do mind expending my energy on someone who is unwilling to learn/change. Please, do come back if you want to understand feminism. If not, please leave me alone. And save your parting remarks for your mirror - they’re better spent there. Don’t make me turn on universal comment moderation. Just go quietly if that’s what you choose to do. Or, alternatively, open your mind and your heart and leave your prejudices at the door.
Thinking Girl, You said, “Sure, “men” and “women” have average physical differences; I’m not disputing that. What I’m saying, again, is so what? None of these things make sense as to why “women” experience oppression based on their gender ” end
If you see selection as oppression, try looking through a different window. If a woman is the best person for the job that’s fine with me. If a woman gets the job for any other reason that stinks. If women do not meet the physical criteria for enroling in the armed forces, should we lower the standards? Or do you prefer to feel secure in the knowledge that you have the strongest and meanest army possible, ready to take on the bad guys. Fighting is dirty work and you should be thankful that brave men are willing to die so you can carry on moaning in peace. Incidentally, when my daughter started playing with dolls, instead of the construction kit I introduced to her, it was because she saw mostly women holding babies. That’s what they tend to do…LOL
PS I keep coming back here because I really enjoy winding you up. Can’t wait for your next insult!!
Regards, Barry
Hi again Barry
Ah, just when I thought I’d gotten rid of you….
I said, “Please, do come back if you want to understand feminism. If not, please leave me alone. ”
So, since you’re back, I take it you want to understand feminism! good. start by reading all my previous Feminism Friday posts, posts under the tag Feminism and Violence Against Women, and my primer on Feminism. Then, go read some of the blogs I link to under Feminist Links on the right hand side. Cuz I sure don’t claim to know everything about feminism, or represent all feminists. nosirree.
Actually, I smiled when I saw your comment today. Even though it’s frustrating talking with someone who seems unwilling to relinquish their position. But then again, neither am I willing to give up my position. The difference between us is that I used to believe the same way as you - hell, it’s the default position in our society: men are biologically way different than women, and that is the basis for everything. But, after learning about social construction, that made a lot more sense to me, and I corrected my misguided opinion. You still cling to yours. (there’s your insult, I guess… :P) It isn’t that I see “selection” as oppression. I see “selection” as only one side of the story, as an incomplete discourse.
Your example of the military: what makes you think that it’s only physicality that matters in terms of military strength? there are lots of jobs in the military, many of which are not physical at all. One of my clients is a high ranking and well-respected female naval officer; her job isn’t about physical fighting, it’s about strategy. And she is the best person for her job. There are plenty of brave women who are also willing to fight and die for their countries; they often have to endure a hell of a lot worse than their male counterparts for the simple fact that they are women in an all-male environment where so many that they work with and that they serve don’t think they belong there. I’d say that takes a degree of mental toughness those guys have no fucking clue about.
Your example of your daughter playing with dolls instead of a construction set - do you see that as proving your point, or mine? because I see it as proving mine. That what she learned through social interaction informed her actions.
Here’s an excerpt from a paper I wrote recently. It summarized the view of Bob Connell, a feminist historian from Australia. The chapter this is drawn from is called “The Body in Social Practice” from his excellent book Gender and Power. It’s totally relevant to this discussion; I hope I can convey the compelling nature of his argument successfully.
So, ‘natural’ actually has no meaning other than what we give it. neither does ‘gender’, ‘man’, ‘woman’, ‘race’, ‘(dis)ability’, ‘religion’, ‘nationality’, ‘class’, etc. These concepts have meanings through social practice - repetitive acts of doing ‘gender’, ‘race’, ‘class’, etc. Get it? No ‘natural’. only discourse.
yum.
Thinking Girl,
You are cherry picking bits from my statements and distorting them such as, “Your example of the military: what makes you think that it’s only physicality that matters in terms of military strength? there are lots of jobs in the military, many of which are not physical at all.” Now you are being very naughty because you know I did not say that! grrrrr. Of course there are jobs in the military that do not require physical strength, and I’m equally sure that a woman’s disposition may enable her to perform such roles better than a man. But that wasn’t what I said damn it! I was talking generally, and generally speaking we need lots of mean nasty guys bursting with testosterone to fight against the equally nasty guys on the other side. So, although I believe having a percentage of females in the military (in specific roles)is a good thing, I certainly could not agree on a 50/50 basis in a nuclear sub because the crew will probably be shagging each other in our hour of need. And in front line combat it just wouldn’t work. Men have a basic instinct (normal guys) to protect females and this would have all sorts of implications on the front line. For one, men would take unnecessary risks to protect females, which would compromise effective combat. You do want to feel safe don’t you? If for no other reason than that you will be able to argue with me for eternity. Cause that’s how long it will take. Ha!
Merry Christmas XXX
Barry
Barry
Since you didn’t respond to the rest of my comments, I guess that means you are at least thinking about it. Good!
Well, you didn’t like my comments about your military example. So, fine, then about the physical jobs: lots of PEOPLE aren’t fit for military duty, on an either physical or mental level. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to be in the military. Lots of people aren’t cut out for it - including some women, and including some men. But there are plenty of women who are cut out for it, who are jsut as mean and nasty as the men who are cut out for it. All kinds of men are in the military too - strong men, small men, big men, kind men, mean men. Not all people are alike, and armies, navies, and air forces are diverse places - which is a good thing, that leads to more skilled and specialized forces.
But, all this talk of military is tiring for this pacifist. My dad was in the military, he pushed and pushed for me to join. I have no desire, I am non-violent, I don’t believe in warfare, I’m not a team player, and I don’t care for people telling me what to do. So I don’t want to talk about it anymore.
I will, however, point out the obvious mistake in this comment you made above: “Men have a basic instinct (normal guys) to protect females ”
I direct you to the ongoing posts about rape and sexual violence. Men do not have a basic instinct to protect women; and to imply that it is only psychopaths who rape women is incorrect. by this logic, considering there are millions of women raped every year, we would have to call “masculinity” some sort of mental illness and claim that all men suffer from it. And I most definitely am not going there.
what is a “normal guy” anyway?
if any normal guys are reading this, could you please start some kind of club or support group, and start identifying yourselves with some sort of pin or something?
oh, and happy christmas to you too!
[...] for some time now. First, it started as challenges to the ideas I presented in posts, mainly from men who believed in some sort of biological essentialism and felt that differences between men and women were enough to justify widespread social oppression [...]
but we’d probably have an innate instinct to protect a woman who was carrying or had carried our child. meaning our line would survive
So has this thread been officially resurrected? Because it’s one of the best ones I’ve read here so far.
Samuel - but how would men know, from an evolutionary perspective (i.e. before such things as paternity tests) that a woman was carrying HIS child? the most he could do was protect any pregnant woman he had had sex with in the hopes that the fetus she was carrying was his. but those efforts might have been wasted, if she had had sex with another man or men - and then wouldn’t that mean more than one man would be ‘protecting’ her? also, it’s a weak claim anyway from an evolutionary perspective: the number one cause of death in pregnant women is murder. and check out how many women and children are abandoned by fathers.
it was a good try…
femsoc66 - thanks. go for it!