male privilege and demanding to be spoonfed feminist theory
March 15, 2007 by thinking girl
An example of male privilege: showing up at a feminist blog, a space of solidarity for those who support the idea that patriarchy oppressess women and that isn’t fair and want to see this end, not bothering to do any preliminary work to understand the theories and language that is used by the feminist movement, and demand that the blog host (or someone else within the community of feminists and feminist allies) do your work for you, spoonfeed you the theories, point you in the right direction, and otherwise educate you.
Something Rainbow Girl said yesterday really stuck with me. She asked:
“What’s with this resurgence of feminist bloggers trying to explain the basics to the uninformed ones that come their way? I really admire the spirit but personally…I just don’t have the patience or the stamina for that.”
Ya know, I’ve always taken the stance that discussion is a great way to learn, both for me and for others, and I’ve tried to use this space to further that end. I’ve invited anyone and everyone to participate, and that has meant explaining a lot of basic stuff, sometimes multiple times to numerous new people. But I’ve always kind of thought that was a good approach, because feminism isn’t just for feminists - it’s for everyone, and the more people who can learn about feminism the better.
But, I’m getting tired. I’m getting tired of doing people’s work for them. It’s frustrating. It’s irritating. And god only knows how much of an effect it actually has on people. So, I’m conflicted. I’d like to hear from you: do you think it’s worth it to continue educating on the basics of feminism through this blog? Where to draw the line between doing people’s work for them and doing my work, which is to advance feminist discourse and gender equality - which I think ultimately must involve some degree of education of non-feminists?
My sense is that it makes sense to talk about - single - specific issues, when talking about them either:
1.) Deals with frustrations/concerns you may have where you want to express them or
2.) Is a point where you can help clarify your feelings and ideas and want feedback.
My sense is that you are really wasting your time trying to “educate” - idiots and/or confront those who may try to goad or push you - from extremely sexist - and/or simply obnoxious positions.
I think that Where you get something out of talking to others - such as getting support from allies you may have or may develop or similar, of course it’s good to write.
In general - from my days of pro-feminist work in the 1980’s in men’s anti-rape work (in Madison, Wisconsin, USA) - I saw the situation with men as being roughly:
10-20% - allies
40-50% - relatively middle ground - potentially reachable at varying degrees and
30-50% - relatively hopeless for the forseeable future.
My sense was that bonding and building together with the allies and reaching the middle ground were where I wanted to be.
Getting hung-up confronting the relatively hopeless men - was a total waste of time. It also doesn’t change much to merely talk with our allies, though this can be helpful when we are doing things locally and need support.
I think that much work that we all do - has fairly similar - possibilities- though the perceived percentages and defining what exactly they are may vary.
Now - when we all hear blatantly sexist or racist things - we can express outrage - if we want to of course, but we don’t need to respond and waste our time often.
It is most important that we nurture each other and that we stay committed to our important causes and do what we can over the long haul. You may need time away at times and to find ways to take care of yourself at times.
I hope that this is helpful!
Maybe compromise. Throw a banner up that announces this is not Feminism 101, this is Feminism Intermediate-Advanced. Provide links. Then, whenever someone who has not yet gotten the basics of Feminism 101 demands to be met on his/her (who am I kidding…
own terms, you can be quite clear that it is not possible for you to meet on the same level until the poster has understood x, y, and z. It would be like trying to discuss the war in Iraq when one conversant doesn’t know basic Middle East political history. . . oh wait, that happens all the time too.
I don’t know. Really, I’ve only ever been a flamer (albeit a polite and rational one), I’ve not had to deal with them. I think you should do what feels best, and bear in mind that the women who benefit from this blog interact with men daily–putting discourse into practice. A feminist-only blog may still eventually educate non-feminists.
I think tanglethis has a good point. I would be inclined (if I were in your position, that is) to take care of myself first, and if that meant not even being Feminism 101 for anybody, then well and good.
If I were to have the wherewithal to deal with Fem101 questions/clarifications, great. What I saw happening in the threads in question was a (not necessarily deliberate) unwillingness to attempt to understand, aided and abetted by an ignorance of the terminology used in feminist dialogue.
Because they didn’t inform themselves of the rules, they couldn’t properly participate.
Ultimately, it’s up to you, but if my sharing contributes to the decision-making, I’m glad to be of help.
I have a similar problem trying to keep a balance…not so much in my blogular life where I’ve totally abandoned any attempt to spoonfeed (plus if they’re ON THE INTERNET already they can’t be far from Google or Wikipedia), but in my second, more boring life: the life outside the internet.
Many of the “Feminism 101″ questions I get do come from people honestly asking a question based on a widespread myth, which is not their fault. But I have to say this is not what I’ve seen on the internet, particularly the trolling and hate on feminist blogs. I try to be really, really patient in person and assume the best of someone’s motivation, but a public conversation between two acquaintances is a completely different format than some jackass leaving swiss-cheese arguments under an alias on YOUR blog.
I am so happy this Feminism 101 blog got started, at least now there is a good way to direct someone to beginner’s resources without feeling like you’re stifling dialogue (the dialogue their ignorance imposes on you).
I should post on this soon…it’s been bugging me lately too!
I’m just going to add that as advocates and activists, part of taking care of the world is taking care of ourselves. If, like me, you are feeling exhausted by this onslaught of stupidity (equality only happens when the superiors act inferior to even it out give me a break!), don’t be afraid to put yourself first. That’s my unapologetically selfish advice.
if you feel like doing it, do it. if the person frusterates you, direct them elsewhere (like feminism 101).
“And god only knows how much of an effect it actually has on people.” Remember my guest post on Faith? There’s a lot of people who can’t accept rational arguments when it contradicts their ingrained (and often unrecognized) beliefs.
The problem with the “This is not Feminism 101″ banner is that people actually rarely notice this kind of thing in a blog (or any website); they jump right to the main text. Maybe if it was a disclaimer at the start of the comments.
Thinking girl
It seems my viewpoints are different form yours. My question is are they too different? Is this a productive discussion?
I am assuming Raindow Girl is refering to my comment. If you are in agreement then this forum is not an appropriate venue for my views or thoughts.
Your blog, your rules.
Put up a “Guidelines for Posting”, a la Twisty and then ruthlessly enforce it.
Dudes should understand that they’re on probation and that this is a safe space for feminists.
My two cents, anyway.
D’oh.
You’ve pretty much done this. Nothing to see here, move along!
Thanks to everyone for your comments and support. It’s so nice that I can face a concern, throw out a question to my readers and allies, and get thoughtful and supportive advice. I really appreciate your help, folks, and I’ve taken your suggestions to heart. I have updated the Discussion page and the Feminism page, as well as added a note in the sidebar.
Geo - yes, you’re absolutely right, it is a waste of time and energy on people unlikely to change their point of view. I guess I’ve been too optimistic at times… as well as maybe a bit shocked at the hatred.
Tanglethis - I really liked you “feminism intermediate-advanced,” so I used that phrase, hope you don’t mind! very helpful.
nightgigjo - yep, you did indeed help - I do need to take care of myself first. I can’t run out of steam arguing with les idiots! thanks for your help, I hope to see you around more and more.
Rainbow Girl - thanks for the initial idea that inspired me to ask everyone for their opinions, as well as your own words here. And you’re totally right, as nightgigjo and tanglethis suggested, I need to take care of myself first so I can continue on without getting exhausted.
I know, I LOVE the Feminism 101 blog!!!!
RenEv - succinctly put. thanks!
Marc Andre - yeah, thanks for bringing that Faith post up - I think you’re totally right!!!! It definitely applies here, for shizzle.
Yeah, I know… not everyone takes the time to read the carefully crafter discussion policies and primer pages about the blog and philosophies held by the blogger. But at least they are there, and I can simply provide a link instead of answering questions that have already been dealt with up front. At least I can tell them, “catch up with the rest of the class, as I’ve made clear in numerous places on this blog (if you actually bothered to read it), I’m not about Feminism 101.” At least they’ve been warned!!!
Steve - no, actually, it’s not about you. But good try in making it all about you!
I’ve never been frustrated by a discussion with you Steve, even though we sometimes disagree on fundamentals. Because you’re always respectful and never an asshole. And I feel like we are exchanging ideas, not that we are not hearing each other. So please continue to come by and comment whenever you want. Really!
Schemanista - ha ha, yeah! But actually, you’re right on one count - I haven’t been enforcing it ruthlessly, so that begins TODAY!
From what I have read of Steve, he seems to be trying to understand. I always feel an urge to help those who really want to learn about feminism because I relate their struggle to mine in coming to understand such things as racism and my own privlege.
Steve: yes, I was referring to your comment but more so with the hundreds and hundreds of other comments which I find ignorant, and so my “beef” was directed at a general situation and not you specifically. Reading back, I can see how this came off as targeted towards you and I would like to clarify this is not the case.
That was my personal opinion and I was not speaking on behalf of anyone, so I hope my bluntness has not made you feel your opinions are unwelcome. If they were, I would choose to stifle debate on my own blog and not TG’s.
I’m pleased and flattered. I think your revisions to the Discussion and Feminism page are pretty clear, and I *also* agree with Marc that some flamers just aren’t going to read those–but this is not a reading-comprehension blog either. You’ve done your work. : )
Clio - yeah, I agree. Steve’s been coming around for a while, and I think he’s pretty thoughtful in his comments, and adds to the conversations here, even when he dissents. I don’t want a blog where dissenting voices aren’t welcome - I just want dissenters to show some GD manners! And in that regard, they could learn a lesson from Steve most of the time.
Rainbow Girl - thanks for clarifying. I didn’t figure you were talking about Steve, I thought your comment was made before Steve came around and joined in.
Tanglethis - great - I was going to ask for feedback on the revisions, but I figured someone would tell me what they thought! Again, I appreciate your help on this one.
Aw Shucks
(blushing) thanks guys, I will continue to try to be as polite as I can, it’s only just the right thing to do.
As for feminism I am getting some of it but the rest comes s l o w l y. I hope I am not like grandpa clogging up the fast lane. Anyway don’t feel you can’t throw a rotten tomato or boot my way occasionaly, thats fine. I just don’t want to wear out my welcome.
My contribution is to note that the web is a wild, woolly place with links flying everywhere. This implies that somebody’s first ever encounter with feminist writing may be through any one feminist site.
Given this possibility, the prominent link to Feminism 101 on your site really does help. Also, if you’re posting on some advanced-level topic, a link to a FAQ entry in your post might assist the uninformed as well.
While there’s obviously no obligation for you to do this, it might help communicate feminist ideas to a broader population than the people who’ve outgrown Feminism 101.
Steve - don’t worry about that!
yyzian - thanks for your comment, and welcome. great suggestion about including a FAQ link in more advanced topic posts - that seems like a good way to balance things out. It is something that, up till now, I have been fairly concerned with, trying to make sure everyone “gets it” and answering questions about basic stuff over and over again. It just gets to be draining sometimes, especially when you end up with some folks who jsut don’t WANT to get it and only really want to argue. That I just don’t understand - I don’t go around to MRA sites looking to disrupt their conversations or start flamewars or even just show them the deep error of their ways… but that’s how sometimes anti-feminists seem to want to engage on feminist sites, and I don’t want mine to be one of them, not anymore. I’ve got more important and interesting stuff to do than repeatedly demonstrate exactly what feminists are fighting for/about through the comment sections of my posts.
[...] it seems with apologetics. In his case, race and feminist apologetics … as is the anonymous Thinking Girl. Now, I’m probably just part of the target of their complaints, because I’m frankly [...]
From one of the unwashed, in lieu of trackback, I linked this post here.
Thanks for writing about this, Mark - I’ll have to re-read your post when I have more sleep!
Hmm…well I don’t know how to trackback this blog, but here’s my contribution (Thinking Girl already weighed in–I don’t really disagree with anything you said, but perhaps other folks can flesh out a bit).
David - thanks for helping out the discussion over at your place!
Yeah, the pingbacks aren’t always working so well over here… I’m not very computer-y, so I don’t know what to do about that. Thansk for the comment to let everyone know!
A thought. I would recommend, TG, that you continue to do what *you*–focus in on Intermediate and Advanced Feminism. Just have or continue to have links to other blogs and websites where Basic Feminism is discussed, e.g.,direct links to the National Organization for Women.