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International Day to Eliminate Racism 2007

I want to write about being a white racist today.

I could write about how awful racism is, and the horrors it has inflicted in the world. We know this. We know how all the wars since WWII have been fought in developing countries where the people are black and brown. We know about slavery, the black holocaust. We know about the very evil INS, and how there has been talk in the US about actually building a physical wall to keep brown people out. We know about Japanese concentration camps in Canada and the US during WWII. We know about how the global economy is controlled by white folks and works against people of colour, so that people of colour are the poorest in the world. We know about environmental racism, the placing of nuclear waste and test sites and other toxic dumps in communities of colour, about food security, about pipelines in the Canadian north and Alaska that have ruined indigenous people’s food supplies and homes. We know about the internment camps for aboriginals in Australia and Canadian residential schools. We know how white society has done everything possible to try to destroy the cultures of people of colour.  We know how white men came here a couple hundred years ago and stole the land from indigenous people.

We know all this. We know it, and yet, it continues.

Maybe we don’t all know it. Maybe if more people knew it, it would stop. Somehow, though, I doubt it.

The fact is, oppressing people of colour works for those doing the oppressing. It has worked for a long, long time. It serves a capitalist system quite well to have a so clearly divided and identified underclass. It serves the global economy, and micro economies within countries, to keep a particular class of people, so easily identified that all you have to do is look at them, from being able to access every freedom, every opportunity, every right. It serves western capitalism to continue to colonize people of colour, to continue to keep people of colour poor and uneducated. Slavery hasn’t ended; colonization hasn’t ended: we just call it globalization now. Of course, racism and capitalism are two separate things, but they are interlocking. Don’t mistake me for saying that eliminating capitalism is the answer for ending racism.

But, that’s not really what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about white racism, because I think it’s poorly understood by white people.

I’m white. For many years, I have been a self-identified anti-racist. Anti-racism was the first political movement I could really identify myself as believing in very strongly. And because I was a self-identified anti-racist, I thought that meant that I, myself, was not a racist.

Not so simple, it turns out. Because what I was identifying as “racism” was not enough. I was identifying racism as hateful acts against people because of their racial identity. Not enough. Then I moved to a philosophy that at least recognized racism as social oppression, part of social power relations, that removed the possibility of “reverse racism.” But still, not enough. And I began to accept that racism is pervasive, built into the very structures of society. And that nobody is exempt.

A few months ago now, a friend, Max, challenged me to think harder about racism in my own life, in my own mind, my own way of looking at the world. I did as he asked, and it changed me. I began to see how racism is so subtle it can be imperceptible in even someone like me, who believes in my deepest heart that people should not be valued differently because of their skin colour. I began to see how denying that I, too, am racist is unhelpful to anti-racism work. My own reaction to racism was such repulsion, I couldn’t identify the ways in which I, too, am racist - even as I believe in racial equality. The two were incoherent, incompatible. And yet, they were, side-by-side, present in me.

To be white is to be racist. To be white in a world where white is right, where white is might, is to be racist. It’s inescapable. It’s the MATRIX. It’s passed on through the generations like a family heirloom. It’s built into our education system, into our legal system, into our history, into our philosophy, into our governments - all of which benefit whites, were made by whites, recorded by whites, and as institutions, remain largely white. By the whites, for the whites. We have kept the power for ourselves, and we wield it with terrifying white-hot fury.

To be white is to be racist. Accepting this is the first step in racist recovery.

I don’t claim to be an expert, or to be enlightened, or to be finished my anti-racism work in myself. But I thought today was an appropriate day to discuss this.

Please, if you haven’t read Peggy McIntosh’s “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” already, go and do it, in the name of all that is good.

119 Responses to “International Day to Eliminate Racism 2007”

  1. on March 21, 2007 at 10:40 pm liberallatte

    Thank you for your passionate message against racism, and I support it.

    But with all respect, I would like to state my opinion on your point that to be white is to be racist.

    I understand that there is a white priviledge and it is deeply embedded in the society like partiarchy. Those who happened to be born with white skin are unfairly benefiting from the white priviledge. But being granted unfair, subtle priviledge itself doesn’t make one racist, unless she/he approves the existence of white priviledge.

    No one chooses to be born white. No one can choose her/his skin colour, and that is why racism is immoral and inane. Being born with characteristics that entail priviledge itself is not a moral crime; supporting the system of unmerited priviledge is.

    Racism has such a strong negative connotation that seriously undermines a person’s moral integrity. One’s moral integrity shouldn’t be undermined by a factor that she/he didn’t choose and over which s/he didn’t have the slightest control. I don’t think you’re racist. I don’t want to label my brilliant teacher, who decisively enlightened me, and gave her highest respect to me with no regards to my skin colour whatsoever, a RACIST, simply because her skin contingently contains less melanin than some other people.

    And also, I’d like to clarify your definition of ‘racism’; because, for example in cases of globalisation that ‘the West oppressing other cultures’, ‘the West’ doesn’t have the exact same meaning as ‘white’. Likewise, Muhammed Cartoons are not ‘racist’, because religion is fundamentally different from race (it doesn’t mean at all that the cartoons are justified).

    Please do not take as attack against you, I have utmost respect for your anti-racism stance but I would just like to state a different opinion on this matter.


  2. on March 21, 2007 at 10:46 pm Clio Bluestocking

    Absolutely! What a fabulous post!

    I find that people tend to think of racism as a dichotomy: you are or you aren’t. Deciding that you dislike and oppose racism means that you automatically are not racist; but, like you wrote, deciding you oppose racism is really just the first step. You have to get to know and understand what racism is in all of its subtle forms, then accept that, if you are white, the very color of your skin makes you part of the problem. I think that is why people have gotten so upset over the Michael Richards incident and the Joe Biden incident among many other similar instances. These were public figures who self-identified as being against racism, but behaving in ways that betrayed their prejudices. Lots of people in the public discussion that followed those incidents seemed entirely clueless that racism isn’t limited to lynching and Jim Crow, nor was it “cured” by the Civil Rights act.


  3. on March 21, 2007 at 10:53 pm thefreeslave

    Thanks for the link, Jenn. Obviously, this is a hard topic because of the whole binary mind fuck people are bound up in…. racism=bad/ I=good, therefore, I cannot be racist.

    Or, when people get challenged on their racism, they completely leave their body in faux guilt - but don’t subsequently heal the disease.

    If racism is embedded in all areas of people activity -
    (1)Economics, (2)Education, (3)Entertainment, (4)Labor, (5)Law, (6)Politics, (7)Religion, (8)Sex and (9)War - then how do we purge the noxious racist teachings from these areas and teach an alternate, humane doctrine to people?

    The minds of people have been and are being colonized and co-opted, so much so that allegedly intelligent people identify a deathstyle, rather than a lifestyle; identify with a slave producing, unjust global system rather than a truly just order where the majority of people control their destiny. And this monstrous system conceals itself to the people with enough privilege and power and education to see what’s going on - if they’d only look.

    As you know, Jenn, when one who feels it and knows it attempts to convey their experience to whites, more often than not - denial, denial, denial is the response. Whites don’t want to believe that the world is not a functioning meritocracy, with the superior on top - unless you mean superior fire power and a superior willingness to brutalize genocidally.

    Whites are going to have to assume they don’t know shit about race/racism/activism and be willing to learn from a basis of complete ignorance before change will come. Humility is critical cuz racism breeds a ‘know-it-all’ ‘expert mind’ authority that retards and blocks real knowledge from flowing to their craniums. Humility. Teachability.

    We all have a long way to go, but thanks for staying with this conversation J.


  4. on March 21, 2007 at 11:33 pm Matthew

    I’m sorry, Jenn, but I gotta call bullshit. Are you saying that just because I was born as I was and no matter what I do: I’m white, so I’m racist? There’s no way for me as an individual to redeem myself? Can’t blacks and Asians be racist, too?


  5. on March 22, 2007 at 12:32 am thinking girl

    Thanks for the comments, everyone.

    LL - thanks, this was very thoughtful. I’m going to take a few minutes and respond, elucidate my thoughts a bit in response - you got me thinking.

    You’re right, nobody chooses to be born white. There isn’t anything to blame a white baby for. Yet, that white baby will grow up to hold greater social privilege and power than babies of other races, based on the hard work of white racists who have come before - the privilege accrues, in a way, like interest on your investment. I don’t think that it’s possible to simply shed that privilege. White folks benefit from their skin colour, and we appreciate it. I wish that everyone was treated with the same kind of automatic respect that white people are given. Like my friend said to me today, it’s not fair, but how am I going to give it up? I can’t. No matter what, I and others will always identify me as white. I can’t give it up. Would I if I could? I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t think so. My life has been hugely easier because I’m white. It has limited my perspective, but overall, and I mean this with sincerity, lucky me. While I don’t particularly like that I have unearned privilege, I haven’t come across an instance in which I have even considered how to give it up - other than one time, in a lineup, the guy wanted to serve me first instead of the black woman who was there before me, and I insisted that he serve her first. You know? fucking minor. Chances are, I won’t even know all the ways I personall benefit from being white, because racism conceals itself to me.

    My point, I suppose, is that society is such that I really can’t give up white privilege. I can only do my very best not to use it to my own advantage purposely, to try my best to not let it limit my understanding of the world, and to do what I can to try to support anti-racism work and be a good ally by listening and being supportive and shutting the frig up sometimes and both listening to and allowing to be heard the voices of people of colour, to not negate their experiences of racism by using my limited white-tainted framework to view the situation, by not forgetting that people of colour exist and that my experiences are not the same as theirs.

    When you’re in the system of racism, and it supports you and you support it without even realizing, then yeah, I think that’s being racist.

    I was with you a couple months ago - I refused to believe that I could be a racist. Somehow, I thought I had transcended the entire racist system that is the foundation of society that I live my life within and benefit from. I would never have put it that way, but I didn’t really understand the full extent of how racism was touching my life, my psyche. I couldn’t possibly be racist - in my heart of hearts, I have always wanted racial equality, have hated the hatred involved in outright racism.

    But that’s just not even the full extent of it. It’s so much more, so much deeper, so much more insidious than those hateful, horrible acts and thoughts that I had labelled as “racist.”

    Just how deep the rabbit hole goes is obscured to white people. Especially in a libertarian-based society, that says all we have to do is pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and try a bit harder and everything will be OK. It’s just not true, but the meritocracy based on libertarianism lays that false belief out for us. And then when we look around at those on top in this society, and they all look the same (white, male, wealthy, able-bodied, etc.), our libertarianism says that all those other folks either don’t work so hard and are lazy and deserve their lower status, or there is something inherently wrong and different about those people that has prevented them from being capable of achievement on the same level.

    I don’t have a problem now with accepting that I participate in a racist system, that I am part of the problem as a white person with unearned privilege in white dominated society. Because I first have to realize this, understand it, in order to do something about it. So don’t worry about me calling myself racist. It has to be done. You don’t have to call me a racist, if you don’t want to, but I would say you’re maybe not looking deeply enough at what racism is all about. It’s like admitting that you’re an alcoholic - it’s the first step in racism rehab. Or something like that. You gotta own it before you can change it. Anything less is unhelpful to anti-racism work.

    anyway, thanks for giving me the chance to talk about it further. I did expect some resistance when I posted this, so I was ready.


  6. on March 22, 2007 at 12:40 am thinking girl

    Clio - thanks, I’m glad my post resounded for you. It’s just a matter of being consistent, I think. I mean, there are lots of things that we can do as white people that are not things that stereotypical racists would do - like have friends who are people of colour, or go to protests, or choose to live in neighbourhoods that are predominantly ethnic, or spend time in non-white countries getting to know the culture and people. But the thing is, none of that erases white privilege. At the end of the day, I’m still white. And people who don’t know any of the things that I do that aren’t things stereotypical racists would do, well, they don’t know those things about me. They are going to treat me as white, and I’m going to benefit from that (for the most part). There’s no getting around it. Being white means participating in a system that privileges white people.

    And yeah, the Michael Richards thing, the Isaiah Washington thing, the Mel Gibson thing - all of that just proves my point, really. You can say all you want, till you’re blue and purple in the face, how you’re not racist/homophobic/anti-semitic. But when it comes down to it, what you do, what you say, how you treat people, how you benefit from the dominant system that you participate in - that’s what gives the lie away.


  7. on March 22, 2007 at 12:48 am thinking girl

    Max - yes yes yes. yes.

    And a million times, thank you. I will never forget the way you helped me understand this.

    I’m far from being done, but I think the first step is a good one.

    How CAN we purge the racist mindset from all the areas of our society and re-educate ourselves and one another?

    I couldn’t agree more - denial is the name of the game, as I know from my own experience with this. Denial! and then wielding the hurt like a weapon against the person or people whose experience of racism is at issue, the hurt of being called out as a racist undercover, how dare you, all that. Just another way to make it all about white folks again, a way to maintain the upper hand, keep the balance tipped in our favour. Maintaining a position of superiority through moral indignation. Very useful for racism.

    Humility, teachability. Shut up and listen. Allow for marginalized voices to speak their truth to power. yes.

    Thanks for helping me along this path, for calling me out, kicking my ass, pushing me to examine. You know I love you for it!


  8. on March 22, 2007 at 1:15 am thinking girl

    Matthew - actually, I thought of you when I was writing this. I didn’t think you’d agree with me.

    Be sure to read the other comments as well, okay?

    Are you saying that just because I was born as I was and no matter what I do: I’m white, so I’m racist? There’s no way for me as an individual to redeem myself? Can’t blacks and Asians be racist, too?

    No, I’m not really saying that. What I’m saying is a bit more subtle. It’s not that you were born the way you are. It’s that society has valued your white skin more than darker skin, and that no matter what, that gives you privilege that you don’t deserve and haven’t earned. (same thing, by the way, about being born male.) You can’t help but be white, and white culture just is racist. I’m kind of saying that because of the privilege we’re afforded as white, we can’t help but participate in racism, because racism is all about affording white folks privilege to the detriment of people of colour. So long as you benefit from a system that values your white skin above darker skin, yep, that’s participating in racism.

    But, like Max made note of (not about you, but white folks generally), I think you’re too caught up in the false binary about racism/racists=bad, so wanting to hold yourself apart from that, and not really examining the way that you benefit, and thus participate, in the racist system that is global politics (etc.).

    We can’t help it. It’s like passive participation, if you like. It’s in all the systems that structure our society. All of them are racist. And we function within that as people who are not directly oppressed by racism, personally. Racism isn’t jsut individual acts of hatred against individual people based on their race. It’s a global hierarchical system of oppression. And we can’t simply opt out of it.

    That doesn’t mean that we can’t try to redeem ourselves. I plan on spending my whole life trying to redeem myself! but I think we must absolutely own the way we benefit from racism in our personal lives as white folks in order to begin to start.

    Yeah, I don’t know about blacks and asians being racist, because I’m not sure what you mean by “racist”. They can internalize racism perpetrated against them, both personally and by “turning on” members of their own race (for lack of better phrasing), and they can buy into the white-invented system of hierarchical classification of which races are “better” than others. So, yeah, people of colour can participate in racism.

    BUT racism isn’t just about individual acts; these acts stem out of a larger social system of racial oppression that involves relations of power. And oppression involves both privilege and subjugation. So my position is that people of colour can’t oppress white folks, if that’s what you’re asking, because people of colour don’t have the social power involved in setting up intricate social systems and structures that benefit themselves and subordinate whites.

    Anyway, accepting this is the first step, I think, in really understanding racism and being an effective anti-racism advocate. And the first step is always the hardest to take. Embrace the idea, try it on, against your own repulsion to it. No knee-jerking! Tell yourself that yes, you benefit from being white, and that privilege in itself hurts people of colour, and that means you benefit from and participate in racism. It’s one hell of an itchy wool sweater of an idea to wear around, let me tell you. It’s an ugly thing. but try it. I know this is very imporant to you, as it is to me. I encourage you to keep with it. talk to me more if you like.


  9. on March 22, 2007 at 2:22 am thefreeslave

    When did white people become white?

    You came here as French, English, Spanish, Dutch, Irish, Italian. At some point, a side deal was made: we’ll make you white and give you certain perks - IF you forget.

    Forgetting is crucial to the maintenance of racism/white supremacy.

    You forget that this is Native American/Indian land. You forget that you never paid for it, never compensated the people for it, never made amends for it, which again means compensating the people for what was taken away and what was done to them. You even forget that you - as a representative of white folks - are still abusing Indians, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week RIGHT NOW.

    If you forget you were Scandinavian, we’ll let you have land - doesn’t belong to you, but you can have it anyway. We’ll create a system that reflects so-called white people, puts white people first and non-white people last. Just forget who you are, what you were.

    I guess that’s why they called it the New World.

    Forget how your people got this land. Forget that freedom and slavery operated side by side, hand in hand. Forget that hypocrisy and not democracy is the highest principle of the white West.

    You forget, because you go to school and they teach it right out of you, they give you an educational lobotomy: about the Indian Wars they teach you who the savages are and who the civilized are. But suppose you are the beast? Suppose you are the savage, the small pox blanket giving, scalp ripping, Squaw raping, land taking, godless heathenistic, oppression machine? Suppose it is you and NOT the Red man who is uncivilized?

    They don’t have the planet on the brink of implosion, you do. They lived in harmony with the land, respected all living things as most indigenous people do. It is your industry, your avarice that has caused the waters to rise, the earth’s temperature to rise.

    This is all related to racism/white supremacy, because at its root - in my opinion - rather than feeling superior - the white man feels inferior and projects this massive self loathing onto planet earth.

    Not knowing is the only way white people can continue to support a global system based on a collective pathology. And white folks are expert at finding reasons why they shouldn’t look, disagree before looking. Contempt prior to investigation is one descriptor of this phenomenon.

    Seeing yourself for who and what you REALLY are, and seeing the White Matrix, for what it really is the only liberation available. Neely Fuller said it best: ‘if you don’t understand racism/white supremacy, everything else will only confuse you.’


  10. on March 22, 2007 at 7:12 am liberallatte

    Thank you for your long, thorough and lucid explanation.

    I still don’t think you’re a racist, but it is obviously completely up to you to call yourself whatever, so I won’t argue on that point.

    However, you wrote “I really can’t give up white privilege”. I still don’t get it; if you can’t do otherwise, how can you (not YOU, but in general) be morally responsible for that act (getting white privilege)? If someone is forced to join in robbery at gunpoint, that person wouldn’t be guilty of robbery, because she/he didn’t have a choice. I’m assuming that being a ‘racist’ implies that person’s ethical defect; I can’t accept the idea that someone is reprehensible for the action or situation into which she/he was coerced into. If ‘racist’ only means a person’s situation that she/he was placed into (getting priviledge) without ethical connotations it would be different, but the term is hardly used in that way.

    Or if is your focus is on “I can’t give it up. Would I if I could? I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t think so”, if someone white is willing to abandon the privileges if she/he could, that person wouldn’t be a racist?

    And also I’d like to point out that white people deserve many of the privileges in the White Privilege list. Don’t get me wrong; all human beings, regardless of her/his race, deserve it. Everyone deserves to be judged on an individual basis, and their qualities not tied to or representing a racial group she/he belongs to. So the part of the problem seems to be that non-white people are not getting that ‘privilege’, not that white people are getting one, as you said “I wish that everyone was treated with the same kind of automatic respect that white people are given”.

    I also point out that sometimes it is hard to detect subtle racism. For example, some people are nasty to me, but I can’t know if it is because I’m non-white or he/she doesn’t like my shirt or he/she thinks I’m not handsome or he/she is frustrated for failing exams or he/she is always nasty to everyone…..

    And some of the examples are not actually ‘white’ privilege but it’s the domination of the Western civilisation, and two are different issues, because ‘white’ is not always the ‘West’ and the ‘West’ is not always ‘white’. Again, it doesn’t mean the Western domination is acceptable, but separating two is important.

    I agree with your points on libertarianism; it assumes the equality of opportunity which is an illusion (one of the many fictional assumptions of modern economics). And I completely agree with you that we have to make our best efforts to eliminate racism. And you’re the most honest person I’ve ever seen (heard). But still, I may be wrong, but I believe being white doesn’t make one racist just by itself…

    Finally, the genocide of Native Americans is one of the most brutal ones in the entire human history, and full compensations should be paid to them. The US government should pay to the Native American tribes. However, no single ‘white’ person living now is responsible for the historical genocide. Even if your parent were a heinous murderer, you are not guilty of murder. You don’t inherit the guilt (well, they are responsible for the current oppression though).

    But then, a difficult conundrum awaits; should Anglo-Saxons pay compensations to Celts as England was Celt’s land? Where do we draw the line? And after all, we are all from East Africa…

    Thanks.


  11. on March 22, 2007 at 10:51 am Matthew

    Jenn,

    I understand the gist of your point. I mean, I’m living in Honduras. I see everyday the effect prosperous North Americans have on their neighbours. I have always believed that Westerners are fat, lazy, ignorant consumers who aren’t grateful for the chance to be even that. I’m aware of the privilege I’ve been afforded through no effort of my own.

    But to say that being white = being racist, it’s a bit of a stretch for me. Yes, we’re privileged and racist as a group, it’s something endemic, but to say the group I belong to is the only thing that defines me doesn’t fly. There comes a point where I am an actual individual. My society is racist, but I’m not (necessarily). Yes, being a member of a given society means you’re predisposed, by default, to a certain way of thinking. But that’s no excuse for not analyzing and thinking for yourself. If enough of us became self-aware, would your white=racist theory become obsolete?

    Ironically, for a racism discussion, I think maybe you emphasize being white too much. I guess I see more than just the oppressive brand of racism. I think more about the just plain ignorance and prejudice. Everybody, regardless of skin colour, has their prejudices, judgements and stereotypes. It’s normal human behaviour. But if you think about why you have the opinions you have, for me that’s half the battle.

    Keep on thinking, Thinking Girl!


  12. on March 22, 2007 at 11:26 am thefreeslave

    LLatte said: “If someone is forced to join in robbery at gunpoint, that person wouldn’t be guilty of robbery, because she/he didn’t have a choice.”

    I think the correct formulation is “if you and your relatives live off of ongoing, systematic robberies, even though you personally have never held a gun to anyone’s head, you are an accessory after the fact.”

    If your people have constructed a society based on robbery and genocide - historic and current - and you receive the benefits of it, then you are guilty of maintaining that system that advantages you, receiving stolen property and wilfull blindness. How can you NOT know what’s happening all around you?

    Whites who are new to this discussion tend to only skim the surface. It is an intellectual exercise. Also, they don’t want to give up their privilege, so they tend to deny they have any.

    Matthew said: “You may be emphasizing being white too much.”

    Actually, whites may be in so much denial that they don’t want to see how they have structured a world where race is shoved down the throats of non-whites, where all they can see is race and whites don’t their invisible hand stagemanaging it all. It takes guts to actually move this conversation from the cranium to the soul.

    Few will. They’ll say, yay,but…yay, but….
    Thanks for being willing TG.


  13. on March 22, 2007 at 12:00 pm Sage

    On the “if white, therefore racist” idea: I think it has to be a bit more specific to the person rather than specific to the skin-tone. Similarly, if male, therefore sexist doesn’t cut it with me either.

    I do believe we’re racist beyond basic racist acts through ignorance or in-action. If we are oblivious to the system, and participate in it, it’s racism. And if we see it, and choose to continue along the easiest route, then we’re racist.

    For example, in my school there are 130 teachers. 128 are white. I have no intention of giving up my position to provide better representation for the benefit of students (which are about 60% white). This act of taking advantage of my privilege is racist. But not all white people will do the same. Only the vast majority.


  14. on March 22, 2007 at 12:41 pm thefreeslave

    Sage said: “… This act of taking advantage of my privilege is racist.”

    I would describe your action as ‘conscious racism’; and if the other ‘vast majority’ of folks follow the same course without conscious intent, I would describe as unconscious. But conscious or unconscious, they still further the group objective which was laid down when the white man arrived here: “take the land and turn it into gold - for ourselves.”

    What I’ve begun to notice is often in these conversations white folks speak a very coded, fork tongued language that obscures, that minimizes, that shifts responsibility: “not all white people will do the same. Only the vast majority.” Wow. Only the vast majority maintain a global system that oppresses Africans, Indians, Asians, Arabs, that murders, rapes, starves and steals from them.

    Racism colonizes the mind as well as the body.


  15. on March 22, 2007 at 1:07 pm Disgusted Beyond Belief

    As an atheist, the first thing that struck me about this idea of being born white destins you to be a racist is that this sounds suspiciously like the concept of original sin - blaming children for bad things their ancestors did. Obviously, as an atheist, I don’t subscribe to such lines of thought, certainly not original sin.

    Further, I think the whole race/sex-ism dichotomies are mostly distractions that the ruling class uses to keep everyone else (the lower 98%) from interfering with the power of the ruling class. And the ruling class, while certainly dominated by white males for historical reasons, is not about race or sex, it is about money, power, and connections. When they were all white men, the 99% of the white men who did not have that power could pretend like they potentially could by noting that they were white and male - except that really buys you nothing when it comes into getting into that top 1%. Basically to get there, you have to be born into it or make a huge fortune and buy your way into it with power and money.

    So the white males could day dream about and take false comfort in the fact that people who looked like them ran everything, but in reality, those people who ran everything cared nothing for white males without power - they are just the little people, same as the non-white males without power. And now, let the little people fight over who gets the scraps left over from the ruling class, based on race or sex or whatever ism you want to choose, meanwhile, the ruling class just laughs all the way to the bank.


  16. on March 22, 2007 at 3:08 pm Clio Bluestocking

    Believe it or not, I think both the freeslave and Matthew are getting toward the same point, but from different angles, which Thinking Girl brought up in her post. Oppression is a relationship of power, and the power often rests on arbitrary designations such as white or male, “we” who exlude “them,” which are simple biological facts.

    As thefreeslave pointed out, “white” was a concept that developed through the nineteenth and twentieth century in this country. “White” was Anglo only, and the Irish were not. Then the Irish became “white” and the Italians were not, and so on. People with black or too brown skin, however, were never allowed to become “white.” As the privlege of whiteness was extended, it continued to exclude on the basis of skin pigmentation.

    This moves us into the European/Western hegemony that Matthew mentions. At any given point in time or place, anyone can be the oppressor or the oppressed (I’m thinking specifically of the Cherokee nation removing descendants of slaves from their rolls); but in the context of the U.S., white is the oppressor race. In the global context, white/western/European/North American is the powerful and oppressive race. By being white, we participate in the oppression because we benefit from privlege, whether the participation be laughing at a racist joke or wearing clothes made in sweatshops or eating food picked by undocumented immigrant workers.

    The question remains as to how we go about eradicating oppression when we benefit from being the oppressor. How do we white people revolutionize racial relations to end racial oppression when, as white people, we are part of the problem?


  17. on March 22, 2007 at 3:24 pm Sage

    I commented, but it didn’t seem to work.

    Max: But conscious or unconscious, they still further the group objective which was laid down when the white man arrived here: “take the land and turn it into gold - for ourselves

    This is my point also. We’re racist through actions, in-actions, ignorance, and by benefiting from the system consciously or unconsciously. I’m not disagreeing with this position at all, just with the logic of making a non-conditional statement because of the possibility of one person refusing to benefit from this privilege .

    To clarify, since there’s a possibility that a white person exists who would walk away from a job offer in which the employment was inequitable, and who consciously denied themselves any benefits of privilege, then that person is not practicing or benefitting (because they actively refuse to) from racism. Since it’s possible for a white person to do this, theoretically, the statement “all whites are racist” needs a condition. Most whites do accept the benefits of racism, but it’s possible that one or two refuse to be any part of this system.

    I said it better before (in the comment that isn’t showing up), but that’s the gist of it.


  18. on March 22, 2007 at 7:44 pm steve

    I disagree in part but not whole with all of you. All of you are like a group of blind men touching an elephant for the first time. The first man says ” An elephant is like a wall” because he touches the elephant in the middle. The second says ” No An elephant is like rope” because he has the tail. The third man says “an elephant is like a large snake” because he has the trunk.

    In this way you all see a part but not the whole, Thinking Girl sees sexism but then feels expanded to include racism. Freeslave sees through pain which is clear, a deep searing pain and so in some respects he sees everything through pain, very understandable and I do not critcize in large. It is an earned pain. But it does color observation.

    What is missing is the realization that difference is cause for abuse oppression and discrimination. The greater the difference the easier it is to select for oppression. Color is clear and present and easy. Can’t hide your color for the most part. And women are easy. A handy set of reliably visible anatomical differences. It’s easy to make it them vs us. Geographical region is often enough, or language or religion or class. It is all the same, it is all the elephant and it is in the room. How many Canadians are glad they are not American and how many of those can really tell you why, in a way that passes more than the shallowest of probes. Some is very mild and almost not worth mentioning like the last, some like sexism and racism have traditionaly been attached to some very deep ugliness.

    Humans discriminate it is in our nature. We group and seperate and use many methods to enforce those groupings. Groupings fade when easier ones are presented. An Irish might successfuly pass for genitic English an African cannot. Easier and lazier and more insidious to grab the easier difference. If aliens landed and did not immediatly dominate they would be the new Specist abuse recipient. Lesser differences would again fade but not dissapear.


  19. on March 22, 2007 at 8:46 pm Ann

    “What is missing is the realization that difference is cause for abuse oppression and discrimination.”

    “The greater the difference the easier it is to select for oppression.”

    “Humans discriminate it is in our nature. We group and seperate and use many methods to enforce those groupings. Groupings fade when easier ones are presented. An Irish might successfuly pass for genitic English an African cannot. Easier and lazier and more insidious to grab the easier difference. If aliens landed and did not immediatly dominate they would be the new Specist abuse recipient. Lesser differences would again fade but not dissapear.”

    Steve, well said.

    It is humans inability to accept differences, and their practicing of heirarchal behaviour that keeps racsim, sexism, and all the other “isms” going.

    Because humans will not accept the differences that all races and groups of people bring to the proverbial table, there will always be conflict and destruction from one group of humans towards another.

    And the need for heirarchal behaviour (someone must always be on the bottom for someone to be on top), will always keep racism endemic in this society.

    White America give up her white privilege without a fight?

    Not gonna happen in my lifetime.

    White-run America willingly work towards a truly equal standing with her black citizens?

    Not in my lifetime.

    White America finally start to resolve the unresolved history of her racist past of genocide against the Native Americans and the history of slavery and Jim Crow segregation against her black citizens?

    Not in my lifetime.

    Maybe 3,000-5,000 years from now.

    But, not anytime soon, that’s for sure.


  20. on March 22, 2007 at 10:07 pm Clio Bluestocking

    I think for a lot of well-meaning white folks, ones who are willing to take a look at their own role in racism and at the nature of racism, come to a point where we wonder what we can do to honestly. What does it mean to release our privlege, especially since that privlege is so ingrained that we usually don’t see it? How do we do that? More importantly, however good our intentions, what will white people lose in working toward an ideal, racially equal world? Are white people prepared for those losses? Right there is exactly why people of color are properly cynical about well-meaning white people.


  21. on March 22, 2007 at 10:08 pm Clio Bluestocking

    Typing skills, what a concept! My first sentence should read: “I think a lot of well-meaning white folks, ones who are willing to take a look at their own role in racism and at the nature of racism, come to a point where we wonder what we can do to honestly fight racism.”


  22. on March 23, 2007 at 12:27 am jpe

    And the ruling class, while certainly dominated by white males for historical reasons, is not about race or sex, it is about money, power, and connections.

    Bingo. Race is an alibi that obscures the underlying class issues.


  23. on March 23, 2007 at 1:21 am thinking girl

    great conversation everyone - good job!

    I will come back to this after I’ve had some sleep, I am overtired right now and kind of giddy, so it’s best not to post too much :P but I did want to welcome JPE and respond, because the simplicity of this comment stood out to me: see, for me, class obscures underlying race issues. It’s no coincidence that the demographics of “poor” and “coloured” end up to be the same, and that “rich” and “white” end up to be the same.

    I also wanted to add that while white men have been the biggest oppressors in terms of setting up this historically pervasive hierarchy, white women have been complicit in it as well, against women of colour in particular, in order to secure white women’s rights to be more like white men than to secure women’s rights more broadly. Like, in Canada for example, white women got the vote in 1916, but in Quebec not until 1940, and for Native Canadians not until 1960. which is why feminism as a historical movement is racist.

    see you tomorrow, after I get some sleep. I hope. (the sleep part, I mean. see, about the giddy?)


  24. on March 23, 2007 at 1:34 am thefreeslave

    I love how white people ride into conversations like these and chalk it all up to “we all discriminate” therefore, let’s not look too carefully at our white selves.

    It just so happens that whites globally have divided the world (Berlin Conference?) into the white, rich north (rich at the expense of non-whites) and the global, non-white south, continuously raped and impoverished is just accidental. Its just difference and everybody does it. How do you explain how whites ended up on top if everyone is doing it? Yeah, I’ve got some beads if you’ll hand over the lower east side.

    You can only believe this crap if a) you are a closeted or uncloseted racist and/or b) completely deluded.

    Malcolm X said it best: We didn’t land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us.

    It landed on non-white people. European nations actually carved the globe up and took over nations in Africa, South and North America, Asia. This is an entirely different issue than some tribal beef. It is completely disingenous, but not surprising that folks start making false generalizations, dragging sexism, monotheism or plaque into a converation on, HELLO, R-A-C-I-S-M.

    But this is how white people torpedo conversations that seek to bring them face to face what their people wrought and what they maintain.


  25. on March 23, 2007 at 6:51 am Ann

    “I also wanted to add that while white men have been the biggest oppressors in terms of setting up this historically pervasive hierarchy, white women have been complicit in it as well, against women of colour in particular, in order to secure white women’s rights to be more like white men than to secure women’s rights more broadly. Like, in Canada for example, white women got the vote in 1916, but in Quebec not until 1940, and for Native Canadians not until 1960. which is why feminism as a historical movement is racist.”

    Well said, TG.

    I was attacked on another blog (white woman-owned blog), for telling the truth of how white women stood by and did nothing, during slavery, and especially, during segregation, while white men raped, impregnated, broke the jaws and skulls of, and murdered black women and girls on a daily basis.

    And they all came crawling out of the woodwork to attack me.

    Everyone ran to the defense of the “poor, wittle, beat-upon white woman”.

    I stood by my comment, and gave evidence to back me up.

    -White women were there jeering and screaming “nigger” in the racist lynch mobs;
    -White women heard the screams and cries of black women/girls while the white man was raping us, and she did nothing;
    -White women wanted to share power with the white man so bad, she was willing to sacrifice not only black men, but, black women as well in the suffragette movement.

    If white women were real women when they could have been, feminism as we know it today would not be the femi-Nazi image that many people have of feminism.

    If anyone was a true feminist, it was BLACK WOMEN, not white women. Pardon my profanity, but white women during the earlier days of feminism found a way to fuck feminism up, and are still fucking it up, with their GENDER TRUMPS RACISM hypocrisy.

    There is much that white women could have done if so many of them were not so gutless from not taking a stand against the many wrongs done to black people in this country by white men.

    And make no mistake about it, white women benefitted tremendously from white men’s hatred and contempt shown towards defenseless black women and girls.

    All the while he was raping us black women, he did not have to rape the white woman.

    And the more he raped us, the more he put her up on that pedestal.

    The more he degraded, debased, and defiled us, the more he told her how so much more pure and better than us she was.

    And she believed the LIE.

    And still believes the lie.

    Still believes in and works with the white man (and anyone else weak-minded enough to believe all the white man’s lies/myths and filth he told on black women for over 400 years), that white woman beauty must forever in every way possible, be celebrated, and that black woman’s beauty must forever be devalued.

    White women have stood back and watched the white man take blows for racism.

    I was beyond sick and damn tired of her being let off the hook. I called the white woman out on the carpet where she could answer for her sins, right along with the white man.

    And my telling the truth over at that blogsite definately hit a raw nerve.

    Good.

    For who else will tell you the truth, more often than not, if not a black woman?


  26. on March 23, 2007 at 7:53 am liberallatte

    thefreeslave said “If your people have constructed a society based on robbery and genocide - historic and current - and you receive the benefits of it, then you are guilty of maintaining that system that advantages you, receiving stolen property and wilfull blindness.”

    My point was, as Sage said, it is possible that some white people refuse to accept the stolen property so not all white people are racists. And the fact that ‘your’ people; (just to clarify, I’m not white. It doesn’t matter at all to me but in this type of argument it may be better to make it clear) people who happened to have same colour of skin; committed an oppression doesn’t mean ‘you’ as an individual is guilty of robbery and genocide. It’s called association fallacy.

    Though I wasn’t born in the West, I’m part of the West, and as a member of the Western civilisation, I’m fully aware that the West is economically oppressing the non-Western societies, and though I’m doing my best to end oppression (e.g. supporting activism for global justice, purchasing fair trade products whenever possible), but I admit that I am sometimes forced to be an accessory to that oppression by receiving benefits. But it is different from “racism”.

    I agree that “we all discriminate”, not only white people discriminate, but it doesn’t reduce the guilt of discrimination by white people. And there are many ways to explain “how whites ended up on top if everyone is doing it?”. Europe developed faster for a myriad of complex reasons; it’s no doubt that colonisation played a role, but the reason Europe could colonise was not really that Europeans had more malicious mind that non-Europeans, Europe had technological advantage over others. Jared Diamond’s ‘Guns, Germs and Steel’ explains that environmental and geological factors put Europe on an advantageous position…


  27. on March 23, 2007 at 11:37 am thefreeslave

    LL: where are the whites who see that racism is the operating system of our culture as they depart their mother’s womb and decolonize their minds, while decrying the system? Where are those whites that refuse to accept the stolen property, who are attacking the system, trying to create a new one and making sure that the Native American receives reparations?

    In this conversation, you’ve got whites who probably consider themselves non-racists who continuously try to minimize the reach of racism. I understand that because I didn’t understand how deep racism is. They can’t avoid it (nor can I), though they think they can: no white baby born in the white West can avoid racism.

    There’s a new film by Kiri Davis (check Youtube) who interviews very young black children and asks them whether they prefer a white doll or a black doll. The white dolls were better, good, clean, superior to the black dolls. They understood this already before the age of 10. Who taught them? If black children have been taught their inferiority what have the white children learned - that we are all equal?! They’ve been taught the world is theirs for the taking.

    All whites are racist from the standpoint that the system of education/indoctrination is racism/white supremacy - through and through. When you are born white/red/yellow/black (in these United States) you have been - in vitro - fed racism. Its unavoidable.

    From day one.

    We all have prejudices and we all can discriminate and perhaps all of us do. But who has created vast global systems of oppression on the basis of race? Who has subjected millions of people to generational poverty, disease, death on the basis of skin color?

    Whites ‘developed faster,’ had a technological advantage - but they used that technological advantage heinously. There’s a difference between having something and how you use it. What’s been done by the West (aka white people) has been and is savage. Not everybody has done what they’ve done.

    They’ve conspired to underdevelop 3 continents. They’ve conspired to retard the growth and development of non-white people, ensuring that, if they could reach the lofty plateau of white folks - it would never happen.

    The one independent black nation in this hemisphere - Haiti - has been sabotaged for 100 years and running. Its as Chomsky described it, ‘the threat of a good example.’ Blacks will not be allowed to have a functioning, independent nation because it would give the superexploited blacks in the diaspora the idea that they deserved one themselves. The European has ensured that that has not come to pass and that’s no accident.

    How can you say that Europeans were not more malicious than non-Europeans? Name one non-white culture that has done to the white man what he has done to us. Technological advancement MADE white people commit atrocities like the Tuskgee Experiment, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Something else besides the technology causes them to create more vicious weaponry and then use it on non-white people.

    LL, it sounds like you are saying there are ways to explain how whites ended up on top without it being about racism. What’s your motive in that endeavor? Again, here is a post about racism and the majority of folks here are declaiming it in the most inventive ways.

    Shouldn’t we go where the truth takes us? I understand why certain white folks here want to move the goal posts in this discussion - but I don’t understand why you do.


  28. on March 23, 2007 at 12:12 pm Disgusted Beyond Belief

    Wait, if this argument about “accepting the spoils of society” makes one a racist, then doesn’t the fact that we killed and cleared off the Native American population to make our nation mean that anyone who achieves anything in our borders is a racist for participating in our society? Doesn’t that make all African-Americans now racist for enjoying the spoils by participating, and by living on land stolen from Native Americans? Doesn’t that make everyone in this entire nation a racist except for Native Americans?

    Wouldn’t it perhaps be better to look at people as individuals, not as members of “races” when judging them? Isn’t looking at people as groups rather than individuals what got us in trouble in the first place?


  29. on March 23, 2007 at 12:30 pm thefreeslave

    DBB: Yes, we all benefit from the theft/rape of the Native American’s land. All of us EXCEPT the Native American. No question about that. Doesn’t make all of us racist, though - just those who set up the country in their image and maintain it similarly.

    Racism is prejudice+power. White people have a monopoly on power and can use it to make their prejudice the law. Black people can be prejudiced, but until we get an army, navy and marine corps, we will not be able to make our individual prejudice legal tender. This is common sense.

    White folks talk individuality out one side of their neck, while practicing coordinated, race based communal action out of the other.

    Looking at people as groups is not what I’m about (its what the European has been about) - exposing how the game is played so that it can be dismantled is critical. Do you want to dismantle this system? I suspect some people here don’t want to expose it because they will lose their advantage as so-called white people.

    Being unwilling to see that white people have a collective agenda - ALWAYS - while talking this, individual ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps,’ ‘why can’t we all just get along’ hambone, exposes the rampant hypocrisy of the culture.


  30. on March 23, 2007 at 1:05 pm thefreeslave

    Clio said:”What does it mean to release our privlege, especially since that privlege is so ingrained that we usually don’t see it? How do we do that? More importantly, however good our intentions, what will white people lose in working toward an ideal, racially equal world? Are white people prepared for those losses? Right there is exactly why people of color are properly cynical about well-meaning white people.”

    Excellent questions. Whites have no motivation to SEE what so clearly affects US. They benefit from the pain that their society causes non-white people. It doesn’t pain them. We say ‘ouch’ and their response is ’so what?’

    An alcoholic in an intervention doesn’t want to hear about the havoc that they have caused. They start casting wild accusations, blaming the victim for their own misery. Whites are the same way cuz whiteness is a habit they find hard to break. Listening, being willing to listen is simple, but it ain’t easy when doing so will confront you with the reality of the damage you’ve done, are doing.

    Folks in denial love to take the conversation off track, take the focus off of them. (Its capitalism, its materialism, its human nature)

    You are quite right, Clio, that right there, my skepticism is triggered. But I don’t get to ignore my race because white folks won’t let me, nor will the brainwashed non-white. Nor will my conscience.


  31. on March 23, 2007 at 1:59 pm L>T

    Wouldn’t it perhaps be better to look at people as individuals, not as members of “races” when judging them? Isn’t looking at people as groups rather than individuals what got us in trouble in the first place? That is would be ideal. But what’s done is done. Crimes against humanity always have a price. Everyone pays.

    BUT, if the shoe was on the other foot…I believe this is where we are all human.
    If anyone told me that only white people are “intrinisally” capable of racism, I would consider that person a racist.

    My personal definition of racism is pretty simple. I realize I don’t understand everything. Thinking girl & everyone has brought up some really good points.


  32. on March 23, 2007 at 3:31 pm Disgusted Beyond Belief

    TFS: If racisim is prejudice + power, then you need to define what power is. Because I don’t have any special power. That’s the big lie. That being white means you have power.

    Just because those who do have power are white and male doesn’t mean all white males have power. They can feel good about themselves for having that in common with those very few who do have power, but that good feeling is just an illusion. Those with acutal power would never share it with anyone not of their class if they did not have to. They don’t care if you’re white male, they aren’t going to give you any power because of that. They love it, though, if you foster the illusion that those who are white have power for being white, because then it gets people fighting over race and ignoring the real basis for power and ignoring those who really have the power.

    There’s nothing a king likes better than the peasants all beating each other up for the scraps left from the kings table.

    So really, if prejudice + power equals racism, there are a miniscule number of racists compared to the general population, because there is only a tiny minority in this country that has power.


  33. on March 23, 2007 at 3:59 pm L>T

    Sorry, I wasn’t finished.

    It’s a subject for many of us that is confusing because there are so many factors trying pull us in different directions.

    No one likes to be put on the defensive for one thing & this issue seems to put everyone on the defensive.

    Political forces use the issue for their own selfish ends.

    Once I thought I had it figured out. Growing up I always knew racism(as I understood it) was wrong. Where I lived there was no black people. I was about 6 before I saw a black person. My parents didn’t talk racist or anything. But in school I picked up right away on the wrongness of it. I had a pretty good understanding of what people like Martin Luther King was talking about & fighting for. I knew very early that racism was wrong. Then when I was 17 I went to live in Amarillo, Texas for a while. The whole segregated society blew me away. I got to know a black guy really well. He couldn’t even come into the restuarant where I worked or I would of gotten fired. We couldn’t walk down the street together with out getting hateful looks. The thing was I got the same reception in his part of town. I was called white trash & other names. It really was no diff. That also blew me away
    I had thought in my niave & idealistic way, that black people would not treat other people the way they’d been treated, because they knew how it felt. Because I knew how it felt being treated as an outcaste because of my poor hillbilly upbringing.
    The only right conclusion I could come to at that time was that people are the same inside.
    So I’ve never seen racism as exclusive to any race. I think some people are & some aren’t.

    As far as in society structure(?), I agree that it has been & still is geared to an exclusive group of people. But, that is also a people problem…?.

    Anyway, I’ll mull this all over because now i see the problem of racism is more complex then I had considered.
    Thanks thinking girl, for the post. :)

    BTW, I posted on the vegetarian issue. I’d love it if you’d leave a comment.


  34. on March 23, 2007 at 4:14 pm schemanista

    DBB: I think you’re missing Max’s point and proving it at the same time.

    It’s a tough one to get, if you’re not a person of colour yourself.

    My only advice, if you’re actually interested in the point that Max is making, is: start from the assumption that Max experiences a truth which is completely invisible to you and me unless we really go looking for it. Instead of deflecting, or misdirecting, keep coming back to racism, as the people who experience it define it.

    Read his blog. Think about what he’s saying.

    The moment you “get it”, isn’t going to be a comfortable one.

    The moment you read: all white people are racist suspects and take it personally, instead of personalizing it, then you’re on your way out of the colony.


  35. on March 23, 2007 at 4:21 pm schemanista

    Max: Or, when people get challenged on their racism, they completely leave their body in faux guilt - but don’t subsequently heal the disease.

    That’s one of the most insightful and memorable things you’ve written. I think it goes to the core of your message.


  36. on March 23, 2007 at 7:47 pm Tracey

    “There is difference and there is power. And who holds the power decides the meaning of the difference.” –June Jordan

    thefreeslave: I am thankful for your saying that “racism = prejudice + power”. Although individuals may argue that they do not feel that they are powerful, it cannot be denied that our culture is based on systematic white supremacy and systematic male supremacy. White privilege and male privilege ARE power.

    Thinking Girl: Thanks so much for this post, and for referencing Peggy McIntosh’s article on white privilege. I recently linked to that article from my own blog in this post: http://unapologeticallyfemale.blogspot.com/2007/03/male-privilege.html

    For anyone interested, I also recommend the book White Like Me, by Tim Wise, a white male who explains the many ways in which he has benefitted from racism and white supremacy. While it is most important to hear people of color define their own experiences, a book like this is a good starting point for someone who is having a hard time recognizing their own white privilege in the first place.


  37. on March 23, 2007 at 9:05 pm Lloyd Webber

    Some of these comments have been extremely disappointing to me. One of the things I’ve realized as a black university student very interested in fighting for justice is that for people of color, we don’t really need any enemies, given the kind of friends we have to make do with. Whatever white conservatives can do, white liberals can do even better and they sometimes even pride themselves on that. Sad, but predictable.


  38. on March 24, 2007 at 7:20 am thinking girl

    OK, time to jump back in - boy has this thread been busy! Thanks folks.

    LL - You said: “I’m assuming that being a ‘racist’ implies that person’s ethical defect; I can’t accept the idea that someone is reprehensible for the action or situation into which she/he was coerced into. If ‘racist’ only means a person’s situation that she/he was placed into (getting priviledge) without ethical connotations it would be different, but the term is hardly used in that way.”

    try this on: not all racists are bad people. Racism is bad, yes, but not everyone complicit in it is necessarily a bad person. People aren’t just the things they do; bad acts doesn’t necessarily equal bad person. Also: I think Max said it well when he said “accessory after the fact” - white people have been given unearned privileges after a long history of oppression, and although I wasn’t personally involved in those things, I’m benefitting from it now. It’s like blood money - living off the avails of crimes against humanity. So while I personally have never stolen anyone’s land, or owned a slave, I have benefitted from those white people who came before me who did do those things, and more. I’ve also been raised within a culture that says in many ways that it’s okay to do these things to people of colour. White liberals have gone and set up all kinds of human rights accords and declarations against discrimination, but what white society does is a different story. Racism is built into the mainframe of white society; I can’t have been raised here and avoided it. So, as a white person, I am morally responsible: the hard work of my white ancestors in creating this unbalanced society culminates in me and other white people living today. I am responsible to do what I can to stop this cycle.

    Also, I think the way “racist” is used is part of the problem, because white folks have set the system up, including the language. We’ve decided that “Racist” should only be used to describe morally defective people who hold particular sets of beliefs and perform particular sets of acts. Again, acts don’t make identity.

    The argument that “you can’t help white privilege, you didn’t ask for it or create it for yourself” is too libertarian for my taste. We don’t create our own realities in completion: we get born into social systems that pre-determine our realities, allow us to choose from a limited set of options (some more limited than others). You know this, and agree, but you’re still clinging to some libertarian underpinnings; of course, since that’s the dominant discourse in the west. Take a look at some philosophical compatibilism: the idea that determinism and free will are compatible rather than at odds.

    I understand the association fallacy, but, I don’t see any white people refusing their privilege, or even how that would be possible. I don’t think it’s possible, in fact, because the privileges afforded white people aren’t necessarily concrete things, they are also ideological, and deeply ingrained, and given without thought and received without thought. I guess I don’t agree that it would be possible for a white person to reject his or her privilege under this system. Because the system itself is based on privilege and subjugation. What I do think is possible is for white folks to work together with people of colour to overturn the racist system itself.

    Lastly, while I agree that the west is becoming increasingly multicultural and diverse, I think it’s still safe to say that those who drive the west in terms of power are white.

    Matthew - thanks for forcing me to further elucidate my position. You said, “If enough of us became self-aware, would your white=racist theory become obsolete?”

    No, if enough of us became self-aware and stopped systematically dominating the rest of the world, THEN my white=racist theory would become obsolete.

    Remember, the whole problem isn’t about biology… “white” is socially culturally historically constructed, made up, not objective. It’s REAL, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not based or rooted in anything… there are so few biological differences between the “races” that it makes no sense to talk about them like we do. The difference between our skin colours and the width of our noses and the length of our foreheads and what our hair is like and the shape of our eyes - this is no basis for the widespread social discrimination between the “races”. It’s that society has valued folks differently (for no good reason, but for arbitrary ones). If we can eliminate that, then racism is over.

    you said: “Ironically, for a racism discussion, I think maybe you emphasize being white too much. I guess I see more than just the oppressive brand of racism. I think more about the just plain ignorance and prejudice. Everybody, regardless of skin colour, has their prejudices, judgements and stereotypes. It’s normal human behaviour. But if you think about why you have the opinions you have, for me that’s half the battle.”

    I agree with Max - White folks don’t emphasize being white enough. Most white people don’t think of themselves as having a race (just sometimes an ehtnicity, but even then not so much, at least not in north america): white is default. But we’re every bit as racialized as black, brown, asian, native people. White is default - coloured marks the difference from white. And thus, coloured folks become their race. (simone de beauvoir is so friggin useful!)

    And because of this, yes, everyone discriminates. But not everyone has the ability to oppress. Racism isn’t just discrimination, it’s oppression.

    But, yes, I think you are right: we especially, as white folks, need to examine why we have the opinions we have, and that is half the battle. But the problem is quite literally that we can’t get outside our own skin to do it.

    thanks!

    Sage - sorry your comment got munched. mine have been getting munched lately too, and it’s my friggin’ blog!

    anyway, I hear you, with the logical counter-example stuff. I’ve personally always had a problem with counter-examples… because I don’t think they necessarily disprove anything. Because it’s possible for a white person to refuse his or her privilege, doesn’t mean that there exists even one white person who has. And because some white privilege isn’t really anything that can be refused, I still don’t buy it. I can’t refuse, for example, the fact that I can buy band-aids that match my skin colour more or less, and black folks can’t. I could try to lobby J&J to make band-aids in a variety of different skin tones, but that’s the extent of refusing that privilege. you know?

    I need my philosophy to be more organic than logical equations.

    Also, as I said above in repsonse to LL, I don’t actually think it’s possible for white people to reject their privilege under the current system. Not consistently enough to really make the counter-example work.

    DBB - yes, not all white males have power. But they do have privilege. Power structures are informed by lots of different stuff, intersectional identity that includes race, sex, gender, class, ability, religion… all kinds of stuff. But just because a person doesn’t experience class privilege doesn’t mean they don’t experience race or gender or sex or sexuality or ability privilege. Don’t confuse capitalism with privilege and power. we all experience privilege, but it doesn’t mean we all have power all the time - we also all experience some form of subjugation.

    Also, as a side note, there are lots of different kinds of power, as well: power over, power within, power to, power with. Here’s an excerpt from a comment I made on this post:

    “power OVER, a controlling power of domination - patriarchy is a form of one group having power over another, as is white supremacy, as is capitalism and classism. Here power is zero-sum. But what about other forms of power: power TO accomplish something, generate or produce, create new possibilities and actions without domination at all; power WITH, the sense of the whole being greater than the sum of the individuals that make up the group, which can be seen in social movements involving solidarity, like the civil rights movement or perhaps Cuba’s revolution; and power WITHIN, a sort of spiritual power, personal strength, magnetism, that starts with self-respect and self-acceptance and treating others as though they have the same. This is the kind of power I think some of our great leaders have had: Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, Malcolm X, Gloria Steinem, even Bill Clinton and Oprah Winfrey seem to have this kind of power within. I think this power within is really a lasting kind of power, a power that can sustain itself and others and motivate social change. These alternative ways of looking at power - not just power OVER - are really important, because they don’t see power as a zero-sum equation, where if I have more, then you have less. If can have all kinds of power TO or power WITHIN, and so can you, and neither threatens the other one bit!”

    Power isn’t necessarily zero-sum, which opens up the possibility for escaping a power-over model and subverting it.

    Steve - actually, I agree with everything you said, particularly about standpoint, that we can’t konw everything about a thing because our perception is coloured by what our position is.

    It’s what you didn’t say that I don’t agree with. You didn’t carry that thought through, to the completion that this is exactly what I’m talking about with white racism. White people aren’t in the correct position to determine what is and is not racism! Because we don’t experience racism! We may experience discrimination based on our race, but that is not racism: racism is a system of structural oppression that privileges some (whites) and subjugates others (everyone who isn’t white). So yes, what you’re saying is right, but you need to finish the thought.

    Thanks!

    Ann - I like what you said about difference not being accepted. Also, the difference that we’re talking about is a social construct - not based in any biological reality. This is important to keep in mind, I think, because it drives home that these differences we are basing our entire social order on are fucking MINISCULE! The similarities between folks that are cast as so vastly different because she produces more melanin than he does are much more cause to celebrate than the differences are cause to oppress.

    I’m in complete agreeance with you about white feminism. It’s so unfortunate that you had that experience with the other white feminists you were engaged with. It’s so fucking unhelpful to talk about gender trumping race, one being “worse” than the other, when they INTERLOCK to create a holistic experience that can’t be separated or divided up into “this part of your oppression is due to your race, and this part is due to your gender.”

    And I LOVE your point that black women were doing “Feminist” work long before it got co-opted by white women in the 60s. This is why I completely understand Alice Walker’s “womanism”. It’s just more of, here come white people (women) on the backs of black people (women) to ride on their work and twist it and theorize it and use it for themselves without much thought to who they have appropriated it all from.

    L>T - thanks for your comments. Something struck me that I wanted to touch on: the part about defensiveness. This is, I think, one of the ways that white people maintain their position of power over people of colour, by reacting defensively, and putting the onus back onto people of colour for having the audacity to point out white racism as they experience it (white people call this “being uppity”, right?). Whites react all hurt and upset by being called a RACIST, and how dare you say that to me I AM NOT (because they think that “racist” = racist ACTS and they’ve ‘never done anything mean to a person of colour’ so they can’t possibly be responsible for racism) - and then the person of colour is the big bad guy for simply speaking his or her truth. It’s a devious and underhanded way to maintain white power. Another way, I think, is to insist that whites experience racism, when what they mean is that whites can experience discrimination based on their race. The two are not the same. by a million miles. Another way is to denounce the person of colour for reacting too emotionally, a trick used on women as well, and not giving POC anger its rightful uptake and acknowledgement. It becomes “you’re too hostile and upset to talk to rationally about this, I can’t hear you when you couch everything in anger.” It’s just a way to deflect white responsibility and maintain oppressive power.

    I’m glad you brought up defensiveness, I don’t think it was adequately addressed before.

    Schemanista - yes yes yes. thanks for your comments. and for linking to Max’s post, that one hit me too, it’s so fucking simple. love it.

    Tracey - thank you, and welcome, I’m glad to have your voice here as well. I had read that post of yours, I liked it very much but I don’t think I commented. I’ll have to get that book with my Chapters gift cards from Xmas!

    Lloyd - thanks for your comment. I appreciate your position. What white folks need to realize is that we don’t get to say what is and isn’t racism - people who experience racism do. So we need to STFU and listen for a change instead of talking all over it all the time.

    Clio - thank you. I appreciate all your questions, about how do white folks go forward from here. I don’t know. It seems like we need a more widespread collective understanding about what it is we as white people are doing in terms of racism and privilege. Because by jsut the comments here on this one post, there’s still a lot of denial and maybe refusal to understand. It seems like white folks are only willing to go so far in agreeing to what racism is… only as far as their own nose. Once it hits their own white skin, then the denial starts.

    Something Max said to me when he was engaging with me about this was to stop thinking about it in terms of theories. Stop intellectualizing racism as a “theory”, stop using theories to try to explain what racism is. Start feeling my way through it, and listening and accepting, rather than do the old philosophical counter-example trick, defending a theoretical position. Start accepting that there are things that I can’t know, I can’t learn, I can’t feel, about racism, because I’m not positioned in such a way to know and learn and feel them. This was hard, for a Thinking Girl. (which is kind of funny, my name, because as much as I think, I feel just the same. I would say more than my head, my heart has ruled my life. I tend to go with my gut, my feeling, rather than what is rational or logical all the time.) It was also not a hard leap to make intellectually, because I believe in standpoint epistemology! Or maybe, it was a short leap over a really deep scary abyss.

    But that was exactly the right note for me - a reminder to feel it instead of think it. maybe that’s why what Max told me helped.

    So, what else can we white folks do? I’m not sure I’m in a position to answer that! Anyone else?

    Max - thank you for everything you’ve said here. I couldn’t agree more. I have nothing to add. Keep speaking your truth - to power!


  39. on March 24, 2007 at 7:22 am thefreeslave

    DBB said: “Because I don’t have any special power. That’s the big lie. That being white means you have power.”

    This is the Big Lie; being white DOES mean you have power on the basis of simply being white. You were born on the the 50 yard line in a hundred yard race. You don’t have to feel you have it to have it. In fact, denying that you have it will keep your racial advantage intact longer. You can pretend to not notice, just like some white people pretend that racism doesn’t exist and that this is a meritocracy.

    Lies, lies, lies.


  40. on March 24, 2007 at 7:25 am thinking girl

    Oh, also, I remembered this article: White Woman Feminist by Marilyn Frye. It’s interesting, check it out and let me know what you think. helpful/unhelpful?


  41. on March 24, 2007 at 1:01 pm Disgusted Beyond Belief

    I’m in a minority far smaller than African-Americans, a minority that is openly despised by the majority population in this country, a minority that more than any other would be denied power, denied political office solely on the basis of belonging to that minority. I am an atheist. I know what it means to be in a despised, openly discriminated against minority.

    Now, that said, and given how the religious have power in this country and discriminate against the non-religious, does that make everyone who is religious the religious equivalent of a racist?

    Sorry, you can’t just wave your hands and declare I have power that I don’t have just because of my skin color. My parents grew up dirt poor. They did not get to where they got because someone handed it to them for their race. They are still not particularly well-off. But they were frugal and they are now semi-retired and they will be able to take care of themselves. No one gave them anything.

    I think those who just blanket call everyone of a certain color a racist are being bigots and are part of the problem. Categorizing someone as something solely based on their race is racist. It is a bald-faced lie to say otherwise. I think the saddest thing is that those who say that are lying to themselves. Blaming others for their own failures.

    Where I think I’ve lost out due to discrimination against atheists, I’ve just seen it as my own failing at not succeeding despite my obstacles. I don’t blame others for my own failures. I could have tried harder. Everyone has obstacles in front of them. Overcoming them just makes you stronger.

    I think back now to many classes I’ve had where I’ve heard those who did not get a good grade complaining about how the teacher was against them. Something I never saw, regardless of my own grade. When I did poorly, the only person I ever blamed was myself. Some teachers are harder than others, but that just means some classes require more work for a better grade. People are all too willing to blame their own failures on others. True leaders, true achievers, they succeed because they don’t blame others for their failures, they blame themselves, figure out what they could do differently, then they do it and succeed. They don’t whine about how everyone who looks different from them is just discriminating against them and keeping them down.

    And note that this holds true even if there really is this huge conspiracy of racism that some claim there is - you are still responsible for your own success.

    The way some talk, we might as well still have slavery, for all the blame they place on those who look different than themselves. They will never be satisfied. If you took them and placed them in a time machine and transported them 10,000 years into the future, into a racist-free utopia, they’d still call people racists, because that is the false filter through which they see everything. Guess what - sometimes when you don’t get a job, it is because the other person was more qualified, not because of your skin color. Sometimes people are just assholes to everyone, not just to those who share your skin pigmentation.

    Several jobs I really wanted, I applied for, and I did NOT get. I did not blame anyone for that but myself. The job I have now I only got after a massive amount of work, proving myself, working for free, showing what I was capable of. I originally was turned down for the job. I could have blamed all sorts of things on that. Instead, I decided not to give up and figured out a way I could earn my way to having it. And I did. I got that job, and not because of skin pigmentation. I worked hard to get it. If someone else can’t accept that, then I am sad for them.


  42. on March 24, 2007 at 2:10 pm thefreeslave

    DBB: Who knows you’re an atheist until you openly declare it?

    Getting something handed to you and having a leg up over others may not be the same thing, but they both involve an advantage over those who are not favored and aren’t handed shit, but rather have their heads held under water while others get to swim unimpeded.

    Your arguments are the best evidence of how denial operates. You really know what discrimination is, as a poor, persecuted atheist, but we people of color are simply delusional, unqualified excuse makers!

    People who are intellectually dishonest, who can’t see blatant patterns right in front of their face are what keeps this racist engine humming along. Whites who haven’t cashed in their unearned privilege like some of their brethren get mad at people of color for it.

    Its not my fault you haven’t taken full advantage of the racist lottery you won at birth. That shit is on you.

    Dude, you’re refusing to look at anything deeper than the surface because to do so would make your illusions crumble like the levees in New Orleans. I KNOW that you know that being white means something besides just being a ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ individual. But being white means never really having to look at shit, mystifying what is and applying bogus justifications for what is. You know this because you are a so-called atheist who, I’m sure, prides himself on picking apart religious hypocrisy. Yet you refuse to even consider looking at let alone picking racism apart. The earth is still flat.

    Your failure to pick apart the REAL religion of this European culture - Racism/White Supremacy is probably because that is YOUR closet theology, not some jive atheism. The Last Poets did this song called “The White Man Has A God Complex.” I hear the strains of that in all of what you say.

    There is no God because YOU are God, your infallible intellect that knows what a black person could never know; there is NO racism and certainly not a racism that gives you a leg up. No, you and only you make things happen in your life. There is no spirit or spiritual, there is no collaboration or conspiracy, there are no obstacles erected for some and privileges for others. There is only the God of YOU.

    Yes, you are a minority of one: the white man as GOD. You are the victim because people like me won’t acknowledge you as you hang from the cross, the real victim of racism, the white man.


  43. on March 24, 2007 at 2:26 pm M

    DDB: First of all, this is a conversation about racism, not oppression in general. While other forms of oppression and discrimination are certainly worth discussing, your willingness to equate the experience of racism with what you feel as an atheist and your ability to “get over it” is beyond insulting. Being discriminated against as an atheist and living as a visual minority in a racist culture are VERY different realities.
    Secondly, the size of one’s oppressed group, (re: “I’m in a minority far smaller than African-Americans” ;) doesn’t get you pity points here. We’re used to discussing oppression against the BIGGEST oppressed group (speaking in population size) in North America: Women.
    White privilege isn’t about getting your white person cheque on a silver platter, in many cases it is much, much sublter than that, and we are in a liberatarian society which tells us everything we’ve got is because we worked for it. While I applaud your tenacity and ability to finally get the job you wanted, but it doesn’t speak to any of the points which have been posted so far.
    I suggest you look again at the link “unpacking the knapsack” in TG’s post, it’ll help ellucidate some of the power you have, even the power that’s not financial.
    I think you’re the one with the false filter here. What’s going on in this conversation is not about whining, it’s about realizing who we are as a culture and as individuals and how we fix that.


  44. on March 24, 2007 at 2:28 pm M

    …or what Max said.
    You posted as I typed, thanks!


  45. on March 24, 2007 at 5:27 pm L>T

    First off, I’m not picking your comments apart to argue with you. Because, I don’t want to argue but to understand. & It’s not that I think you or the freeslave, & who ever else who agrees are wrong or anything. I don’t know what to think, myself, because I’ve never been asked to consider racism in this way: (I’ve always used the definition in this paragraph; Also, I think the way “racist” is used is part of the problem, because white folks have set the system up, including the language. We’ve decided that “Racist” should only be used to describe morally defective people who hold particular sets of beliefs and perform particular sets of acts.)
    your definition: To be white is to be racist. To be white in a world where white is right, where white is might, is to be racist. It’s inescapable.
    I’ll consider that. & I’ll also accept the rules :
    Stop intellectualizing racism as a “theory”, stop using theories to try to explain what racism is. I think this comes down to don’t distance yourself from it. OK!
    Whites react all hurt and upset by being called a RACIST. OK, I won’t do that
    Another way, I think, is to insist that whites experience racism, OK, I won’t do that either
    Another way is to denounce the person of colour for reacting too emotionally. that one’s pretty easy.
    Accept to be born white is to be born privileged. I agree with that, so OK.
    To try to convince you that I’m not racist is pointless. Because, you don’t leave any outs. :) Not only do you cut off all avenues of escape, you define racism.
    so, I’d have to say by your definition, I am a racist because I’m white. No getting around that.

    I do have a problem with your generalizations, for example:
    You said this:([by implication]white people call this “being uppity”, right?)
    & this: then the person of colour is the big bad guy for simply speaking his or her truth.
    & freeslave says: But being white means never really having to look at shit, mystifying what is and applying bogus justifications for what is.

    So now that I’m a “racist” it seems that you can accuse me of anything you want wether I do it or not, because you’ve just put me in the catagory.

    You’ll have excuse me if this is a little hard getting used to.


  46. on March 24, 2007 at 5:48 pm Disgusted Beyond Belief

    I never said there was no such thing as racism. I object to the use of the term as applied to an entire class of people, regardless of who they are or what they’ve done. That, to me, is the thinking of one who IS a racist. Or certainly a bigot.

    And just because there is racism, that doesn’t mean everything that happens is about racism. Class trumps race every single time. If you doubt it, then see how someone who is a billionaire gets treated by others who know they are a billionaire, and see if it truly varies by the race of the billionaire. See if someone who is a Senator who is known to be a Senator is treated any differently based on their race. I’d bet good money that wealth and power will be all that matters in such treatment.

    I find it somewhat humurous to have all sorts of charactatures placed on me simply for my race. To do such a thing, to me, is the definition of a racist. You don’t see me as a person, you see me as a whitey. I find it even more humorous to see your equation of atheism with some sort of self-delusion of godhood. Nice to see you have that sort of bigotry in full force as well.

    You know, whatever racisim there is in the world, you will not help matters by giving blanket inuslts to entire races. As far as I’m concerned, doing so makes you part of the problem, not the solution. One can always find some historical wrong if you look hard enough. Holding onto them is a way to keep hatred and warfare going indefinitely. Witness the Sunnis and the Shia. Witness the Israelis and the Palestinians. At some point, someone needs to bury whatever was wrong in the past or you will just have an eye for an eye until the whole world is blind.


  47. on March 24, 2007 at 6:17 pm Brooklynite

    TG, I agree with a lot of what you say, but some of it strikes me as a bit self-congratulatory. For instance, you write:

    It seems like white folks are only willing to go so far in agreeing to what racism is… only as far as their own nose. Once it hits their own white skin, then the denial starts.

    And elsewhere, you write:

    It’s like admitting that you’re an alcoholic - it’s the first step in racism rehab. Or something like that. You gotta own it before you can change it.

    Isn’t the claim that you’re one of the small minority of anti-racist whites who acknowledges the universality of white racism a similar kind of back-patting, in some ways, to the claim that you’re one of the small minority of whites who isn’t racist at all?

    Let me put it another way. You say that for a long time you believed that you weren’t racist, and then a couple of months ago you realized that you are racist, because all whites are racist. But that redefinition, as valuable as it may be, doesn’t really disturb your self-perception, does it?

    On the one hand, yes, it requires that you identify yourself as a racist. But it’s not anything about you that makes you a racist, other than your whiteness, not anything that you can work on, or do anything about. On the contrary, the very act of declaring yourself a racist is itself evidence of your anti-racism.

    It seems to me that if you declare that everyone who benefits from white privilege is a racist by definition, you’re conflating two distinct concepts for no obvious benefit. White babies are presumably likely to receive better better treatment in hospital emergency rooms than black babies, but does that mean that white babies are racist? I don’t see how it advances our understanding of racism to say so.

    To acknowledge the possibility that non-racist whites may exist is, it seems to me, a more humble and more radical statement than the blanket one you’ve made. After all, your statement, “to be white is to be racist,” is far less of a challenge than something like this…

    “I don’t know if it’s possible to be white and not be racist. I hope it is. But I do know that I, myself, am racist.”

    …or even this:

    “Yes, it’s possible for a white person to not be a racist. But I know I’m not such a person, and I seriously doubt that you’re one either.”


  48. on March 24, 2007 at 7:16 pm Samiha Esha

    Great Article congrats :)


  49. on March 24, 2007 at 8:44 pm Prosehack65

    I struggle with this myself. As an adopted person, I appear white, although my actual race is unknown; therefore, I benefit from white privilge based strictly on superficial things like skin tone. At the same time, I’m never quite sure if I deserve the I “pass” I’m getting, you know?

    As an individual, I understand my racist impulses, a product of my immediate socialization and the world around me. (Although I would have chosen the black doll as a child, if it had to be a doll and not, say, a pony, because it happened to be my favorite color.) My ideology is always hailing me, and I must constantly choose to resist it. I have no problem, none, accepting that I have benefited from my perceived race. And that to a certain extent I am complicit in racism because there have been times I’ve allowed myself to “pass,” in MacIntosh’s words: I have not refused to “be part of the white club.” I could justify some of those times with safety concerns, social niceties, or what-have-you, but there are times I flat-out let it go simply because it is easier or to my advantage to do so. So I’m a solopsistic, ethnocentric pragmatist. I’m white and I’m racist.

    So how does that translate into I’m a racist BECAUSE I’m white?

    In strictest terms, a racism has a two-part definition: 1) recognizing differences between races of people and 2) believing that one’s race is superior to others. In the first sense, borne out by the entries here, every one of us is racist. But in the second part, I begin to experience a real discomfort. I don’t believe my race is superior to anyone’s…but herein lies the rub!…I also have a hard time accepting that my race is responsible for institutionalized oppression. Here’s where I start to squirm and splutter the “yeah buts.” For the sake of discussion, I’ll share them with you.

    What I see in PoC’s comments on here regarding racism seems to focus heavily on the history of race–white women’s refusal to oppose slavery, for example, makes white women today racist. Yet at the same time, my family (great uncles) personally sacrificed their status and wealth in opposi