I want to write about being a white racist today.
I could write about how awful racism is, and the horrors it has inflicted in the world. We know this. We know how all the wars since WWII have been fought in developing countries where the people are black and brown. We know about slavery, the black holocaust. We know about the very evil INS, and how there has been talk in the US about actually building a physical wall to keep brown people out. We know about Japanese concentration camps in Canada and the US during WWII. We know about how the global economy is controlled by white folks and works against people of colour, so that people of colour are the poorest in the world. We know about environmental racism, the placing of nuclear waste and test sites and other toxic dumps in communities of colour, about food security, about pipelines in the Canadian north and Alaska that have ruined indigenous people’s food supplies and homes. We know about the internment camps for aboriginals in Australia and Canadian residential schools. We know how white society has done everything possible to try to destroy the cultures of people of colour. We know how white men came here a couple hundred years ago and stole the land from indigenous people.
We know all this. We know it, and yet, it continues.
Maybe we don’t all know it. Maybe if more people knew it, it would stop. Somehow, though, I doubt it.
The fact is, oppressing people of colour works for those doing the oppressing. It has worked for a long, long time. It serves a capitalist system quite well to have a so clearly divided and identified underclass. It serves the global economy, and micro economies within countries, to keep a particular class of people, so easily identified that all you have to do is look at them, from being able to access every freedom, every opportunity, every right. It serves western capitalism to continue to colonize people of colour, to continue to keep people of colour poor and uneducated. Slavery hasn’t ended; colonization hasn’t ended: we just call it globalization now. Of course, racism and capitalism are two separate things, but they are interlocking. Don’t mistake me for saying that eliminating capitalism is the answer for ending racism.
But, that’s not really what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about white racism, because I think it’s poorly understood by white people.
I’m white. For many years, I have been a self-identified anti-racist. Anti-racism was the first political movement I could really identify myself as believing in very strongly. And because I was a self-identified anti-racist, I thought that meant that I, myself, was not a racist.
Not so simple, it turns out. Because what I was identifying as “racism” was not enough. I was identifying racism as hateful acts against people because of their racial identity. Not enough. Then I moved to a philosophy that at least recognized racism as social oppression, part of social power relations, that removed the possibility of “reverse racism.” But still, not enough. And I began to accept that racism is pervasive, built into the very structures of society. And that nobody is exempt.
A few months ago now, a friend, Max, challenged me to think harder about racism in my own life, in my own mind, my own way of looking at the world. I did as he asked, and it changed me. I began to see how racism is so subtle it can be imperceptible in even someone like me, who believes in my deepest heart that people should not be valued differently because of their skin colour. I began to see how denying that I, too, am racist is unhelpful to anti-racism work. My own reaction to racism was such repulsion, I couldn’t identify the ways in which I, too, am racist – even as I believe in racial equality. The two were incoherent, incompatible. And yet, they were, side-by-side, present in me.
To be white is to be racist. To be white in a world where white is right, where white is might, is to be racist. It’s inescapable. It’s the MATRIX. It’s passed on through the generations like a family heirloom. It’s built into our education system, into our legal system, into our history, into our philosophy, into our governments – all of which benefit whites, were made by whites, recorded by whites, and as institutions, remain largely white. By the whites, for the whites. We have kept the power for ourselves, and we wield it with terrifying white-hot fury.
To be white is to be racist. Accepting this is the first step in racist recovery.
I don’t claim to be an expert, or to be enlightened, or to be finished my anti-racism work in myself. But I thought today was an appropriate day to discuss this.
Please, if you haven’t read Peggy McIntosh’s “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” already, go and do it, in the name of all that is good.
Thank you for your passionate message against racism, and I support it.
But with all respect, I would like to state my opinion on your point that to be white is to be racist.
I understand that there is a white priviledge and it is deeply embedded in the society like partiarchy. Those who happened to be born with white skin are unfairly benefiting from the white priviledge. But being granted unfair, subtle priviledge itself doesn’t make one racist, unless she/he approves the existence of white priviledge.
No one chooses to be born white. No one can choose her/his skin colour, and that is why racism is immoral and inane. Being born with characteristics that entail priviledge itself is not a moral crime; supporting the system of unmerited priviledge is.
Racism has such a strong negative connotation that seriously undermines a person’s moral integrity. One’s moral integrity shouldn’t be undermined by a factor that she/he didn’t choose and over which s/he didn’t have the slightest control. I don’t think you’re racist. I don’t want to label my brilliant teacher, who decisively enlightened me, and gave her highest respect to me with no regards to my skin colour whatsoever, a RACIST, simply because her skin contingently contains less melanin than some other people.
And also, I’d like to clarify your definition of ‘racism’; because, for example in cases of globalisation that ‘the West oppressing other cultures’, ‘the West’ doesn’t have the exact same meaning as ‘white’. Likewise, Muhammed Cartoons are not ‘racist’, because religion is fundamentally different from race (it doesn’t mean at all that the cartoons are justified).
Please do not take as attack against you, I have utmost respect for your anti-racism stance but I would just like to state a different opinion on this matter.
Absolutely! What a fabulous post!
I find that people tend to think of racism as a dichotomy: you are or you aren’t. Deciding that you dislike and oppose racism means that you automatically are not racist; but, like you wrote, deciding you oppose racism is really just the first step. You have to get to know and understand what racism is in all of its subtle forms, then accept that, if you are white, the very color of your skin makes you part of the problem. I think that is why people have gotten so upset over the Michael Richards incident and the Joe Biden incident among many other similar instances. These were public figures who self-identified as being against racism, but behaving in ways that betrayed their prejudices. Lots of people in the public discussion that followed those incidents seemed entirely clueless that racism isn’t limited to lynching and Jim Crow, nor was it “cured” by the Civil Rights act.
Thanks for the link, Jenn. Obviously, this is a hard topic because of the whole binary mind fuck people are bound up in…. racism=bad/ I=good, therefore, I cannot be racist.
Or, when people get challenged on their racism, they completely leave their body in faux guilt – but don’t subsequently heal the disease.
If racism is embedded in all areas of people activity –
(1)Economics, (2)Education, (3)Entertainment, (4)Labor, (5)Law, (6)Politics, (7)Religion, (8)Sex and (9)War – then how do we purge the noxious racist teachings from these areas and teach an alternate, humane doctrine to people?
The minds of people have been and are being colonized and co-opted, so much so that allegedly intelligent people identify a deathstyle, rather than a lifestyle; identify with a slave producing, unjust global system rather than a truly just order where the majority of people control their destiny. And this monstrous system conceals itself to the people with enough privilege and power and education to see what’s going on – if they’d only look.
As you know, Jenn, when one who feels it and knows it attempts to convey their experience to whites, more often than not – denial, denial, denial is the response. Whites don’t want to believe that the world is not a functioning meritocracy, with the superior on top – unless you mean superior fire power and a superior willingness to brutalize genocidally.
Whites are going to have to assume they don’t know shit about race/racism/activism and be willing to learn from a basis of complete ignorance before change will come. Humility is critical cuz racism breeds a ‘know-it-all’ ‘expert mind’ authority that retards and blocks real knowledge from flowing to their craniums. Humility. Teachability.
We all have a long way to go, but thanks for staying with this conversation J.
I’m sorry, Jenn, but I gotta call bullshit. Are you saying that just because I was born as I was and no matter what I do: I’m white, so I’m racist? There’s no way for me as an individual to redeem myself? Can’t blacks and Asians be racist, too?
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
LL – thanks, this was very thoughtful. I’m going to take a few minutes and respond, elucidate my thoughts a bit in response – you got me thinking.
You’re right, nobody chooses to be born white. There isn’t anything to blame a white baby for. Yet, that white baby will grow up to hold greater social privilege and power than babies of other races, based on the hard work of white racists who have come before – the privilege accrues, in a way, like interest on your investment. I don’t think that it’s possible to simply shed that privilege. White folks benefit from their skin colour, and we appreciate it. I wish that everyone was treated with the same kind of automatic respect that white people are given. Like my friend said to me today, it’s not fair, but how am I going to give it up? I can’t. No matter what, I and others will always identify me as white. I can’t give it up. Would I if I could? I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t think so. My life has been hugely easier because I’m white. It has limited my perspective, but overall, and I mean this with sincerity, lucky me. While I don’t particularly like that I have unearned privilege, I haven’t come across an instance in which I have even considered how to give it up – other than one time, in a lineup, the guy wanted to serve me first instead of the black woman who was there before me, and I insisted that he serve her first. You know? fucking minor. Chances are, I won’t even know all the ways I personall benefit from being white, because racism conceals itself to me.
My point, I suppose, is that society is such that I really can’t give up white privilege. I can only do my very best not to use it to my own advantage purposely, to try my best to not let it limit my understanding of the world, and to do what I can to try to support anti-racism work and be a good ally by listening and being supportive and shutting the frig up sometimes and both listening to and allowing to be heard the voices of people of colour, to not negate their experiences of racism by using my limited white-tainted framework to view the situation, by not forgetting that people of colour exist and that my experiences are not the same as theirs.
When you’re in the system of racism, and it supports you and you support it without even realizing, then yeah, I think that’s being racist.
I was with you a couple months ago – I refused to believe that I could be a racist. Somehow, I thought I had transcended the entire racist system that is the foundation of society that I live my life within and benefit from. I would never have put it that way, but I didn’t really understand the full extent of how racism was touching my life, my psyche. I couldn’t possibly be racist – in my heart of hearts, I have always wanted racial equality, have hated the hatred involved in outright racism.
But that’s just not even the full extent of it. It’s so much more, so much deeper, so much more insidious than those hateful, horrible acts and thoughts that I had labelled as “racist.”
Just how deep the rabbit hole goes is obscured to white people. Especially in a libertarian-based society, that says all we have to do is pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and try a bit harder and everything will be OK. It’s just not true, but the meritocracy based on libertarianism lays that false belief out for us. And then when we look around at those on top in this society, and they all look the same (white, male, wealthy, able-bodied, etc.), our libertarianism says that all those other folks either don’t work so hard and are lazy and deserve their lower status, or there is something inherently wrong and different about those people that has prevented them from being capable of achievement on the same level.
I don’t have a problem now with accepting that I participate in a racist system, that I am part of the problem as a white person with unearned privilege in white dominated society. Because I first have to realize this, understand it, in order to do something about it. So don’t worry about me calling myself racist. It has to be done. You don’t have to call me a racist, if you don’t want to, but I would say you’re maybe not looking deeply enough at what racism is all about. It’s like admitting that you’re an alcoholic – it’s the first step in racism rehab. Or something like that. You gotta own it before you can change it. Anything less is unhelpful to anti-racism work.
anyway, thanks for giving me the chance to talk about it further. I did expect some resistance when I posted this, so I was ready.
Clio – thanks, I’m glad my post resounded for you. It’s just a matter of being consistent, I think. I mean, there are lots of things that we can do as white people that are not things that stereotypical racists would do – like have friends who are people of colour, or go to protests, or choose to live in neighbourhoods that are predominantly ethnic, or spend time in non-white countries getting to know the culture and people. But the thing is, none of that erases white privilege. At the end of the day, I’m still white. And people who don’t know any of the things that I do that aren’t things stereotypical racists would do, well, they don’t know those things about me. They are going to treat me as white, and I’m going to benefit from that (for the most part). There’s no getting around it. Being white means participating in a system that privileges white people.
And yeah, the Michael Richards thing, the Isaiah Washington thing, the Mel Gibson thing – all of that just proves my point, really. You can say all you want, till you’re blue and purple in the face, how you’re not racist/homophobic/anti-semitic. But when it comes down to it, what you do, what you say, how you treat people, how you benefit from the dominant system that you participate in – that’s what gives the lie away.
Max – yes yes yes. yes.
And a million times, thank you. I will never forget the way you helped me understand this.
I’m far from being done, but I think the first step is a good one.
How CAN we purge the racist mindset from all the areas of our society and re-educate ourselves and one another?
I couldn’t agree more – denial is the name of the game, as I know from my own experience with this. Denial! and then wielding the hurt like a weapon against the person or people whose experience of racism is at issue, the hurt of being called out as a racist undercover, how dare you, all that. Just another way to make it all about white folks again, a way to maintain the upper hand, keep the balance tipped in our favour. Maintaining a position of superiority through moral indignation. Very useful for racism.
Humility, teachability. Shut up and listen. Allow for marginalized voices to speak their truth to power. yes.
Thanks for helping me along this path, for calling me out, kicking my ass, pushing me to examine. You know I love you for it!
Matthew – actually, I thought of you when I was writing this. I didn’t think you’d agree with me.
Be sure to read the other comments as well, okay?
No, I’m not really saying that. What I’m saying is a bit more subtle. It’s not that you were born the way you are. It’s that society has valued your white skin more than darker skin, and that no matter what, that gives you privilege that you don’t deserve and haven’t earned. (same thing, by the way, about being born male.) You can’t help but be white, and white culture just is racist. I’m kind of saying that because of the privilege we’re afforded as white, we can’t help but participate in racism, because racism is all about affording white folks privilege to the detriment of people of colour. So long as you benefit from a system that values your white skin above darker skin, yep, that’s participating in racism.
But, like Max made note of (not about you, but white folks generally), I think you’re too caught up in the false binary about racism/racists=bad, so wanting to hold yourself apart from that, and not really examining the way that you benefit, and thus participate, in the racist system that is global politics (etc.).
We can’t help it. It’s like passive participation, if you like. It’s in all the systems that structure our society. All of them are racist. And we function within that as people who are not directly oppressed by racism, personally. Racism isn’t jsut individual acts of hatred against individual people based on their race. It’s a global hierarchical system of oppression. And we can’t simply opt out of it.
That doesn’t mean that we can’t try to redeem ourselves. I plan on spending my whole life trying to redeem myself! but I think we must absolutely own the way we benefit from racism in our personal lives as white folks in order to begin to start.
Yeah, I don’t know about blacks and asians being racist, because I’m not sure what you mean by “racist”. They can internalize racism perpetrated against them, both personally and by “turning on” members of their own race (for lack of better phrasing), and they can buy into the white-invented system of hierarchical classification of which races are “better” than others. So, yeah, people of colour can participate in racism.
BUT racism isn’t just about individual acts; these acts stem out of a larger social system of racial oppression that involves relations of power. And oppression involves both privilege and subjugation. So my position is that people of colour can’t oppress white folks, if that’s what you’re asking, because people of colour don’t have the social power involved in setting up intricate social systems and structures that benefit themselves and subordinate whites.
Anyway, accepting this is the first step, I think, in really understanding racism and being an effective anti-racism advocate. And the first step is always the hardest to take. Embrace the idea, try it on, against your own repulsion to it. No knee-jerking! Tell yourself that yes, you benefit from being white, and that privilege in itself hurts people of colour, and that means you benefit from and participate in racism. It’s one hell of an itchy wool sweater of an idea to wear around, let me tell you. It’s an ugly thing. but try it. I know this is very imporant to you, as it is to me. I encourage you to keep with it. talk to me more if you like.
When did white people become white?
You came here as French, English, Spanish, Dutch, Irish, Italian. At some point, a side deal was made: we’ll make you white and give you certain perks – IF you forget.
Forgetting is crucial to the maintenance of racism/white supremacy.
You forget that this is Native American/Indian land. You forget that you never paid for it, never compensated the people for it, never made amends for it, which again means compensating the people for what was taken away and what was done to them. You even forget that you – as a representative of white folks – are still abusing Indians, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week RIGHT NOW.
If you forget you were Scandinavian, we’ll let you have land – doesn’t belong to you, but you can have it anyway. We’ll create a system that reflects so-called white people, puts white people first and non-white people last. Just forget who you are, what you were.
I guess that’s why they called it the New World.
Forget how your people got this land. Forget that freedom and slavery operated side by side, hand in hand. Forget that hypocrisy and not democracy is the highest principle of the white West.
You forget, because you go to school and they teach it right out of you, they give you an educational lobotomy: about the Indian Wars they teach you who the savages are and who the civilized are. But suppose you are the beast? Suppose you are the savage, the small pox blanket giving, scalp ripping, Squaw raping, land taking, godless heathenistic, oppression machine? Suppose it is you and NOT the Red man who is uncivilized?
They don’t have the planet on the brink of implosion, you do. They lived in harmony with the land, respected all living things as most indigenous people do. It is your industry, your avarice that has caused the waters to rise, the earth’s temperature to rise.
This is all related to racism/white supremacy, because at its root – in my opinion – rather than feeling superior – the white man feels inferior and projects this massive self loathing onto planet earth.
Not knowing is the only way white people can continue to support a global system based on a collective pathology. And white folks are expert at finding reasons why they shouldn’t look, disagree before looking. Contempt prior to investigation is one descriptor of this phenomenon.
Seeing yourself for who and what you REALLY are, and seeing the White Matrix, for what it really is the only liberation available. Neely Fuller said it best: ‘if you don’t understand racism/white supremacy, everything else will only confuse you.’
Thank you for your long, thorough and lucid explanation.
I still don’t think you’re a racist, but it is obviously completely up to you to call yourself whatever, so I won’t argue on that point.
However, you wrote “I really can’t give up white privilege”. I still don’t get it; if you can’t do otherwise, how can you (not YOU, but in general) be morally responsible for that act (getting white privilege)? If someone is forced to join in robbery at gunpoint, that person wouldn’t be guilty of robbery, because she/he didn’t have a choice. I’m assuming that being a ‘racist’ implies that person’s ethical defect; I can’t accept the idea that someone is reprehensible for the action or situation into which she/he was coerced into. If ‘racist’ only means a person’s situation that she/he was placed into (getting priviledge) without ethical connotations it would be different, but the term is hardly used in that way.
Or if is your focus is on “I can’t give it up. Would I if I could? I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t think so”, if someone white is willing to abandon the privileges if she/he could, that person wouldn’t be a racist?
And also I’d like to point out that white people deserve many of the privileges in the White Privilege list. Don’t get me wrong; all human beings, regardless of her/his race, deserve it. Everyone deserves to be judged on an individual basis, and their qualities not tied to or representing a racial group she/he belongs to. So the part of the problem seems to be that non-white people are not getting that ‘privilege’, not that white people are getting one, as you said “I wish that everyone was treated with the same kind of automatic respect that white people are given”.
I also point out that sometimes it is hard to detect subtle racism. For example, some people are nasty to me, but I can’t know if it is because I’m non-white or he/she doesn’t like my shirt or he/she thinks I’m not handsome or he/she is frustrated for failing exams or he/she is always nasty to everyone…..
And some of the examples are not actually ‘white’ privilege but it’s the domination of the Western civilisation, and two are different issues, because ‘white’ is not always the ‘West’ and the ‘West’ is not always ‘white’. Again, it doesn’t mean the Western domination is acceptable, but separating two is important.
I agree with your points on libertarianism; it assumes the equality of opportunity which is an illusion (one of the many fictional assumptions of modern economics). And I completely agree with you that we have to make our best efforts to eliminate racism. And you’re the most honest person I’ve ever seen (heard). But still, I may be wrong, but I believe being white doesn’t make one racist just by itself…
Finally, the genocide of Native Americans is one of the most brutal ones in the entire human history, and full compensations should be paid to them. The US government should pay to the Native American tribes. However, no single ‘white’ person living now is responsible for the historical genocide. Even if your parent were a heinous murderer, you are not guilty of murder. You don’t inherit the guilt (well, they are responsible for the current oppression though).
But then, a difficult conundrum awaits; should Anglo-Saxons pay compensations to Celts as England was Celt’s land? Where do we draw the line? And after all, we are all from East Africa…
Thanks.
Jenn,
I understand the gist of your point. I mean, I’m living in Honduras. I see everyday the effect prosperous North Americans have on their neighbours. I have always believed that Westerners are fat, lazy, ignorant consumers who aren’t grateful for the chance to be even that. I’m aware of the privilege I’ve been afforded through no effort of my own.
But to say that being white = being racist, it’s a bit of a stretch for me. Yes, we’re privileged and racist as a group, it’s something endemic, but to say the group I belong to is the only thing that defines me doesn’t fly. There comes a point where I am an actual individual. My society is racist, but I’m not (necessarily). Yes, being a member of a given society means you’re predisposed, by default, to a certain way of thinking. But that’s no excuse for not analyzing and thinking for yourself. If enough of us became self-aware, would your white=racist theory become obsolete?
Ironically, for a racism discussion, I think maybe you emphasize being white too much. I guess I see more than just the oppressive brand of racism. I think more about the just plain ignorance and prejudice. Everybody, regardless of skin colour, has their prejudices, judgements and stereotypes. It’s normal human behaviour. But if you think about why you have the opinions you have, for me that’s half the battle.
Keep on thinking, Thinking Girl!
LLatte said: “If someone is forced to join in robbery at gunpoint, that person wouldn’t be guilty of robbery, because she/he didn’t have a choice.”
I think the correct formulation is “if you and your relatives live off of ongoing, systematic robberies, even though you personally have never held a gun to anyone’s head, you are an accessory after the fact.”
If your people have constructed a society based on robbery and genocide – historic and current – and you receive the benefits of it, then you are guilty of maintaining that system that advantages you, receiving stolen property and wilfull blindness. How can you NOT know what’s happening all around you?
Whites who are new to this discussion tend to only skim the surface. It is an intellectual exercise. Also, they don’t want to give up their privilege, so they tend to deny they have any.
Matthew said: “You may be emphasizing being white too much.”
Actually, whites may be in so much denial that they don’t want to see how they have structured a world where race is shoved down the throats of non-whites, where all they can see is race and whites don’t their invisible hand stagemanaging it all. It takes guts to actually move this conversation from the cranium to the soul.
Few will. They’ll say, yay,but…yay, but….
Thanks for being willing TG.
On the “if white, therefore racist” idea: I think it has to be a bit more specific to the person rather than specific to the skin-tone. Similarly, if male, therefore sexist doesn’t cut it with me either.
I do believe we’re racist beyond basic racist acts through ignorance or in-action. If we are oblivious to the system, and participate in it, it’s racism. And if we see it, and choose to continue along the easiest route, then we’re racist.
For example, in my school there are 130 teachers. 128 are white. I have no intention of giving up my position to provide better representation for the benefit of students (which are about 60% white). This act of taking advantage of my privilege is racist. But not all white people will do the same. Only the vast majority.
Sage said: “… This act of taking advantage of my privilege is racist.”
I would describe your action as ‘conscious racism’; and if the other ‘vast majority’ of folks follow the same course without conscious intent, I would describe as unconscious. But conscious or unconscious, they still further the group objective which was laid down when the white man arrived here: “take the land and turn it into gold – for ourselves.”
What I’ve begun to notice is often in these conversations white folks speak a very coded, fork tongued language that obscures, that minimizes, that shifts responsibility: “not all white people will do the same. Only the vast majority.” Wow. Only the vast majority maintain a global system that oppresses Africans, Indians, Asians, Arabs, that murders, rapes, starves and steals from them.
Racism colonizes the mind as well as the body.
As an atheist, the first thing that struck me about this idea of being born white destins you to be a racist is that this sounds suspiciously like the concept of original sin – blaming children for bad things their ancestors did. Obviously, as an atheist, I don’t subscribe to such lines of thought, certainly not original sin.
Further, I think the whole race/sex-ism dichotomies are mostly distractions that the ruling class uses to keep everyone else (the lower 98%) from interfering with the power of the ruling class. And the ruling class, while certainly dominated by white males for historical reasons, is not about race or sex, it is about money, power, and connections. When they were all white men, the 99% of the white men who did not have that power could pretend like they potentially could by noting that they were white and male – except that really buys you nothing when it comes into getting into that top 1%. Basically to get there, you have to be born into it or make a huge fortune and buy your way into it with power and money.
So the white males could day dream about and take false comfort in the fact that people who looked like them ran everything, but in reality, those people who ran everything cared nothing for white males without power – they are just the little people, same as the non-white males without power. And now, let the little people fight over who gets the scraps left over from the ruling class, based on race or sex or whatever ism you want to choose, meanwhile, the ruling class just laughs all the way to the bank.
Believe it or not, I think both the freeslave and Matthew are getting toward the same point, but from different angles, which Thinking Girl brought up in her post. Oppression is a relationship of power, and the power often rests on arbitrary designations such as white or male, “we” who exlude “them,” which are simple biological facts.
As thefreeslave pointed out, “white” was a concept that developed through the nineteenth and twentieth century in this country. “White” was Anglo only, and the Irish were not. Then the Irish became “white” and the Italians were not, and so on. People with black or too brown skin, however, were never allowed to become “white.” As the privlege of whiteness was extended, it continued to exclude on the basis of skin pigmentation.
This moves us into the European/Western hegemony that Matthew mentions. At any given point in time or place, anyone can be the oppressor or the oppressed (I’m thinking specifically of the Cherokee nation removing descendants of slaves from their rolls); but in the context of the U.S., white is the oppressor race. In the global context, white/western/European/North American is the powerful and oppressive race. By being white, we participate in the oppression because we benefit from privlege, whether the participation be laughing at a racist joke or wearing clothes made in sweatshops or eating food picked by undocumented immigrant workers.
The question remains as to how we go about eradicating oppression when we benefit from being the oppressor. How do we white people revolutionize racial relations to end racial oppression when, as white people, we are part of the problem?
I commented, but it didn’t seem to work.
Max: But conscious or unconscious, they still further the group objective which was laid down when the white man arrived here: “take the land and turn it into gold – for ourselves
This is my point also. We’re racist through actions, in-actions, ignorance, and by benefiting from the system consciously or unconsciously. I’m not disagreeing with this position at all, just with the logic of making a non-conditional statement because of the possibility of one person refusing to benefit from this privilege .
To clarify, since there’s a possibility that a white person exists who would walk away from a job offer in which the employment was inequitable, and who consciously denied themselves any benefits of privilege, then that person is not practicing or benefitting (because they actively refuse to) from racism. Since it’s possible for a white person to do this, theoretically, the statement “all whites are racist” needs a condition. Most whites do accept the benefits of racism, but it’s possible that one or two refuse to be any part of this system.
I said it better before (in the comment that isn’t showing up), but that’s the gist of it.
I disagree in part but not whole with all of you. All of you are like a group of blind men touching an elephant for the first time. The first man says ” An elephant is like a wall” because he touches the elephant in the middle. The second says ” No An elephant is like rope” because he has the tail. The third man says “an elephant is like a large snake” because he has the trunk.
In this way you all see a part but not the whole, Thinking Girl sees sexism but then feels expanded to include racism. Freeslave sees through pain which is clear, a deep searing pain and so in some respects he sees everything through pain, very understandable and I do not critcize in large. It is an earned pain. But it does color observation.
What is missing is the realization that difference is cause for abuse oppression and discrimination. The greater the difference the easier it is to select for oppression. Color is clear and present and easy. Can’t hide your color for the most part. And women are easy. A handy set of reliably visible anatomical differences. It’s easy to make it them vs us. Geographical region is often enough, or language or religion or class. It is all the same, it is all the elephant and it is in the room. How many Canadians are glad they are not American and how many of those can really tell you why, in a way that passes more than the shallowest of probes. Some is very mild and almost not worth mentioning like the last, some like sexism and racism have traditionaly been attached to some very deep ugliness.
Humans discriminate it is in our nature. We group and seperate and use many methods to enforce those groupings. Groupings fade when easier ones are presented. An Irish might successfuly pass for genitic English an African cannot. Easier and lazier and more insidious to grab the easier difference. If aliens landed and did not immediatly dominate they would be the new Specist abuse recipient. Lesser differences would again fade but not dissapear.
“What is missing is the realization that difference is cause for abuse oppression and discrimination.”
“The greater the difference the easier it is to select for oppression.”
“Humans discriminate it is in our nature. We group and seperate and use many methods to enforce those groupings. Groupings fade when easier ones are presented. An Irish might successfuly pass for genitic English an African cannot. Easier and lazier and more insidious to grab the easier difference. If aliens landed and did not immediatly dominate they would be the new Specist abuse recipient. Lesser differences would again fade but not dissapear.”
Steve, well said.
It is humans inability to accept differences, and their practicing of heirarchal behaviour that keeps racsim, sexism, and all the other “isms” going.
Because humans will not accept the differences that all races and groups of people bring to the proverbial table, there will always be conflict and destruction from one group of humans towards another.
And the need for heirarchal behaviour (someone must always be on the bottom for someone to be on top), will always keep racism endemic in this society.
White America give up her white privilege without a fight?
Not gonna happen in my lifetime.
White-run America willingly work towards a truly equal standing with her black citizens?
Not in my lifetime.
White America finally start to resolve the unresolved history of her racist past of genocide against the Native Americans and the history of slavery and Jim Crow segregation against her black citizens?
Not in my lifetime.
Maybe 3,000-5,000 years from now.
But, not anytime soon, that’s for sure.
I think for a lot of well-meaning white folks, ones who are willing to take a look at their own role in racism and at the nature of racism, come to a point where we wonder what we can do to honestly. What does it mean to release our privlege, especially since that privlege is so ingrained that we usually don’t see it? How do we do that? More importantly, however good our intentions, what will white people lose in working toward an ideal, racially equal world? Are white people prepared for those losses? Right there is exactly why people of color are properly cynical about well-meaning white people.
Typing skills, what a concept! My first sentence should read: “I think a lot of well-meaning white folks, ones who are willing to take a look at their own role in racism and at the nature of racism, come to a point where we wonder what we can do to honestly fight racism.”
Bingo. Race is an alibi that obscures the underlying class issues.
great conversation everyone – good job!
I will come back to this after I’ve had some sleep, I am overtired right now and kind of giddy, so it’s best not to post too much
but I did want to welcome JPE and respond, because the simplicity of this comment stood out to me: see, for me, class obscures underlying race issues. It’s no coincidence that the demographics of “poor” and “coloured” end up to be the same, and that “rich” and “white” end up to be the same.
I also wanted to add that while white men have been the biggest oppressors in terms of setting up this historically pervasive hierarchy, white women have been complicit in it as well, against women of colour in particular, in order to secure white women’s rights to be more like white men than to secure women’s rights more broadly. Like, in Canada for example, white women got the vote in 1916, but in Quebec not until 1940, and for Native Canadians not until 1960. which is why feminism as a historical movement is racist.
see you tomorrow, after I get some sleep. I hope. (the sleep part, I mean. see, about the giddy?)
I love how white people ride into conversations like these and chalk it all up to “we all discriminate” therefore, let’s not look too carefully at our white selves.
It just so happens that whites globally have divided the world (Berlin Conference?) into the white, rich north (rich at the expense of non-whites) and the global, non-white south, continuously raped and impoverished is just accidental. Its just difference and everybody does it. How do you explain how whites ended up on top if everyone is doing it? Yeah, I’ve got some beads if you’ll hand over the lower east side.
You can only believe this crap if a) you are a closeted or uncloseted racist and/or b) completely deluded.
Malcolm X said it best: We didn’t land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us.
It landed on non-white people. European nations actually carved the globe up and took over nations in Africa, South and North America, Asia. This is an entirely different issue than some tribal beef. It is completely disingenous, but not surprising that folks start making false generalizations, dragging sexism, monotheism or plaque into a converation on, HELLO, R-A-C-I-S-M.
But this is how white people torpedo conversations that seek to bring them face to face what their people wrought and what they maintain.
“I also wanted to add that while white men have been the biggest oppressors in terms of setting up this historically pervasive hierarchy, white women have been complicit in it as well, against women of colour in particular, in order to secure white women’s rights to be more like white men than to secure women’s rights more broadly. Like, in Canada for example, white women got the vote in 1916, but in Quebec not until 1940, and for Native Canadians not until 1960. which is why feminism as a historical movement is racist.”
Well said, TG.
I was attacked on another blog (white woman-owned blog), for telling the truth of how white women stood by and did nothing, during slavery, and especially, during segregation, while white men raped, impregnated, broke the jaws and skulls of, and murdered black women and girls on a daily basis.
And they all came crawling out of the woodwork to attack me.
Everyone ran to the defense of the “poor, wittle, beat-upon white woman”.
I stood by my comment, and gave evidence to back me up.
-White women were there jeering and screaming “nigger” in the racist lynch mobs;
-White women heard the screams and cries of black women/girls while the white man was raping us, and she did nothing;
-White women wanted to share power with the white man so bad, she was willing to sacrifice not only black men, but, black women as well in the suffragette movement.
If white women were real women when they could have been, feminism as we know it today would not be the femi-Nazi image that many people have of feminism.
If anyone was a true feminist, it was BLACK WOMEN, not white women. Pardon my profanity, but white women during the earlier days of feminism found a way to fuck feminism up, and are still fucking it up, with their GENDER TRUMPS RACISM hypocrisy.
There is much that white women could have done if so many of them were not so gutless from not taking a stand against the many wrongs done to black people in this country by white men.
And make no mistake about it, white women benefitted tremendously from white men’s hatred and contempt shown towards defenseless black women and girls.
All the while he was raping us black women, he did not have to rape the white woman.
And the more he raped us, the more he put her up on that pedestal.
The more he degraded, debased, and defiled us, the more he told her how so much more pure and better than us she was.
And she believed the LIE.
And still believes the lie.
Still believes in and works with the white man (and anyone else weak-minded enough to believe all the white man’s lies/myths and filth he told on black women for over 400 years), that white woman beauty must forever in every way possible, be celebrated, and that black woman’s beauty must forever be devalued.
White women have stood back and watched the white man take blows for racism.
I was beyond sick and damn tired of her being let off the hook. I called the white woman out on the carpet where she could answer for her sins, right along with the white man.
And my telling the truth over at that blogsite definately hit a raw nerve.
Good.
For who else will tell you the truth, more often than not, if not a black woman?
thefreeslave said “If your people have constructed a society based on robbery and genocide – historic and current – and you receive the benefits of it, then you are guilty of maintaining that system that advantages you, receiving stolen property and wilfull blindness.”
My point was, as Sage said, it is possible that some white people refuse to accept the stolen property so not all white people are racists. And the fact that ‘your’ people; (just to clarify, I’m not white. It doesn’t matter at all to me but in this type of argument it may be better to make it clear) people who happened to have same colour of skin; committed an oppression doesn’t mean ‘you’ as an individual is guilty of robbery and genocide. It’s called association fallacy.
Though I wasn’t born in the West, I’m part of the West, and as a member of the Western civilisation, I’m fully aware that the West is economically oppressing the non-Western societies, and though I’m doing my best to end oppression (e.g. supporting activism for global justice, purchasing fair trade products whenever possible), but I admit that I am sometimes forced to be an accessory to that oppression by receiving benefits. But it is different from “racism”.
I agree that “we all discriminate”, not only white people discriminate, but it doesn’t reduce the guilt of discrimination by white people. And there are many ways to explain “how whites ended up on top if everyone is doing it?”. Europe developed faster for a myriad of complex reasons; it’s no doubt that colonisation played a role, but the reason Europe could colonise was not really that Europeans had more malicious mind that non-Europeans, Europe had technological advantage over others. Jared Diamond’s ‘Guns, Germs and Steel’ explains that environmental and geological factors put Europe on an advantageous position…
LL: where are the whites who see that racism is the operating system of our culture as they depart their mother’s womb and decolonize their minds, while decrying the system? Where are those whites that refuse to accept the stolen property, who are attacking the system, trying to create a new one and making sure that the Native American receives reparations?
In this conversation, you’ve got whites who probably consider themselves non-racists who continuously try to minimize the reach of racism. I understand that because I didn’t understand how deep racism is. They can’t avoid it (nor can I), though they think they can: no white baby born in the white West can avoid racism.
There’s a new film by Kiri Davis (check Youtube) who interviews very young black children and asks them whether they prefer a white doll or a black doll. The white dolls were better, good, clean, superior to the black dolls. They understood this already before the age of 10. Who taught them? If black children have been taught their inferiority what have the white children learned – that we are all equal?! They’ve been taught the world is theirs for the taking.
All whites are racist from the standpoint that the system of education/indoctrination is racism/white supremacy – through and through. When you are born white/red/yellow/black (in these United States) you have been – in vitro – fed racism. Its unavoidable.
From day one.
We all have prejudices and we all can discriminate and perhaps all of us do. But who has created vast global systems of oppression on the basis of race? Who has subjected millions of people to generational poverty, disease, death on the basis of skin color?
Whites ‘developed faster,’ had a technological advantage – but they used that technological advantage heinously. There’s a difference between having something and how you use it. What’s been done by the West (aka white people) has been and is savage. Not everybody has done what they’ve done.
They’ve conspired to underdevelop 3 continents. They’ve conspired to retard the growth and development of non-white people, ensuring that, if they could reach the lofty plateau of white folks – it would never happen.
The one independent black nation in this hemisphere – Haiti – has been sabotaged for 100 years and running. Its as Chomsky described it, ‘the threat of a good example.’ Blacks will not be allowed to have a functioning, independent nation because it would give the superexploited blacks in the diaspora the idea that they deserved one themselves. The European has ensured that that has not come to pass and that’s no accident.
How can you say that Europeans were not more malicious than non-Europeans? Name one non-white culture that has done to the white man what he has done to us. Technological advancement MADE white people commit atrocities like the Tuskgee Experiment, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Something else besides the technology causes them to create more vicious weaponry and then use it on non-white people.
LL, it sounds like you are saying there are ways to explain how whites ended up on top without it being about racism. What’s your motive in that endeavor? Again, here is a post about racism and the majority of folks here are declaiming it in the most inventive ways.
Shouldn’t we go where the truth takes us? I understand why certain white folks here want to move the goal posts in this discussion – but I don’t understand why you do.
Wait, if this argument about “accepting the spoils of society” makes one a racist, then doesn’t the fact that we killed and cleared off the Native American population to make our nation mean that anyone who achieves anything in our borders is a racist for participating in our society? Doesn’t that make all African-Americans now racist for enjoying the spoils by participating, and by living on land stolen from Native Americans? Doesn’t that make everyone in this entire nation a racist except for Native Americans?
Wouldn’t it perhaps be better to look at people as individuals, not as members of “races” when judging them? Isn’t looking at people as groups rather than individuals what got us in trouble in the first place?
DBB: Yes, we all benefit from the theft/rape of the Native American’s land. All of us EXCEPT the Native American. No question about that. Doesn’t make all of us racist, though – just those who set up the country in their image and maintain it similarly.
Racism is prejudice+power. White people have a monopoly on power and can use it to make their prejudice the law. Black people can be prejudiced, but until we get an army, navy and marine corps, we will not be able to make our individual prejudice legal tender. This is common sense.
White folks talk individuality out one side of their neck, while practicing coordinated, race based communal action out of the other.
Looking at people as groups is not what I’m about (its what the European has been about) – exposing how the game is played so that it can be dismantled is critical. Do you want to dismantle this system? I suspect some people here don’t want to expose it because they will lose their advantage as so-called white people.
Being unwilling to see that white people have a collective agenda – ALWAYS – while talking this, individual ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps,’ ‘why can’t we all just get along’ hambone, exposes the rampant hypocrisy of the culture.
Clio said:”What does it mean to release our privlege, especially since that privlege is so ingrained that we usually don’t see it? How do we do that? More importantly, however good our intentions, what will white people lose in working toward an ideal, racially equal world? Are white people prepared for those losses? Right there is exactly why people of color are properly cynical about well-meaning white people.”
Excellent questions. Whites have no motivation to SEE what so clearly affects US. They benefit from the pain that their society causes non-white people. It doesn’t pain them. We say ‘ouch’ and their response is ’so what?’
An alcoholic in an intervention doesn’t want to hear about the havoc that they have caused. They start casting wild accusations, blaming the victim for their own misery. Whites are the same way cuz whiteness is a habit they find hard to break. Listening, being willing to listen is simple, but it ain’t easy when doing so will confront you with the reality of the damage you’ve done, are doing.
Folks in denial love to take the conversation off track, take the focus off of them. (Its capitalism, its materialism, its human nature)
You are quite right, Clio, that right there, my skepticism is triggered. But I don’t get to ignore my race because white folks won’t let me, nor will the brainwashed non-white. Nor will my conscience.
Wouldn’t it perhaps be better to look at people as individuals, not as members of “races” when judging them? Isn’t looking at people as groups rather than individuals what got us in trouble in the first place? That is would be ideal. But what’s done is done. Crimes against humanity always have a price. Everyone pays.
BUT, if the shoe was on the other foot…I believe this is where we are all human.
If anyone told me that only white people are “intrinisally” capable of racism, I would consider that person a racist.
My personal definition of racism is pretty simple. I realize I don’t understand everything. Thinking girl & everyone has brought up some really good points.
TFS: If racisim is prejudice + power, then you need to define what power is. Because I don’t have any special power. That’s the big lie. That being white means you have power.
Just because those who do have power are white and male doesn’t mean all white males have power. They can feel good about themselves for having that in common with those very few who do have power, but that good feeling is just an illusion. Those with acutal power would never share it with anyone not of their class if they did not have to. They don’t care if you’re white male, they aren’t going to give you any power because of that. They love it, though, if you foster the illusion that those who are white have power for being white, because then it gets people fighting over race and ignoring the real basis for power and ignoring those who really have the power.
There’s nothing a king likes better than the peasants all beating each other up for the scraps left from the kings table.
So really, if prejudice + power equals racism, there are a miniscule number of racists compared to the general population, because there is only a tiny minority in this country that has power.
Sorry, I wasn’t finished.
It’s a subject for many of us that is confusing because there are so many factors trying pull us in different directions.
No one likes to be put on the defensive for one thing & this issue seems to put everyone on the defensive.
Political forces use the issue for their own selfish ends.
Once I thought I had it figured out. Growing up I always knew racism(as I understood it) was wrong. Where I lived there was no black people. I was about 6 before I saw a black person. My parents didn’t talk racist or anything. But in school I picked up right away on the wrongness of it. I had a pretty good understanding of what people like Martin Luther King was talking about & fighting for. I knew very early that racism was wrong. Then when I was 17 I went to live in Amarillo, Texas for a while. The whole segregated society blew me away. I got to know a black guy really well. He couldn’t even come into the restuarant where I worked or I would of gotten fired. We couldn’t walk down the street together with out getting hateful looks. The thing was I got the same reception in his part of town. I was called white trash & other names. It really was no diff. That also blew me away
I had thought in my niave & idealistic way, that black people would not treat other people the way they’d been treated, because they knew how it felt. Because I knew how it felt being treated as an outcaste because of my poor hillbilly upbringing.
The only right conclusion I could come to at that time was that people are the same inside.
So I’ve never seen racism as exclusive to any race. I think some people are & some aren’t.
As far as in society structure(?), I agree that it has been & still is geared to an exclusive group of people. But, that is also a people problem…?.
Anyway, I’ll mull this all over because now i see the problem of racism is more complex then I had considered.
Thanks thinking girl, for the post.
BTW, I posted on the vegetarian issue. I’d love it if you’d leave a comment.
DBB: I think you’re missing Max’s point and proving it at the same time.
It’s a tough one to get, if you’re not a person of colour yourself.
My only advice, if you’re actually interested in the point that Max is making, is: start from the assumption that Max experiences a truth which is completely invisible to you and me unless we really go looking for it. Instead of deflecting, or misdirecting, keep coming back to racism, as the people who experience it define it.
Read his blog. Think about what he’s saying.
The moment you “get it”, isn’t going to be a comfortable one.
The moment you read: all white people are racist suspects and take it personally, instead of personalizing it, then you’re on your way out of the colony.
Max: Or, when people get challenged on their racism, they completely leave their body in faux guilt – but don’t subsequently heal the disease.
That’s one of the most insightful and memorable things you’ve written. I think it goes to the core of your message.
“There is difference and there is power. And who holds the power decides the meaning of the difference.” –June Jordan
thefreeslave: I am thankful for your saying that “racism = prejudice + power”. Although individuals may argue that they do not feel that they are powerful, it cannot be denied that our culture is based on systematic white supremacy and systematic male supremacy. White privilege and male privilege ARE power.
Thinking Girl: Thanks so much for this post, and for referencing Peggy McIntosh’s article on white privilege. I recently linked to that article from my own blog in this post: http://unapologeticallyfemale.blogspot.com/2007/03/male-privilege.html
For anyone interested, I also recommend the book White Like Me, by Tim Wise, a white male who explains the many ways in which he has benefitted from racism and white supremacy. While it is most important to hear people of color define their own experiences, a book like this is a good starting point for someone who is having a hard time recognizing their own white privilege in the first place.
Some of these comments have been extremely disappointing to me. One of the things I’ve realized as a black university student very interested in fighting for justice is that for people of color, we don’t really need any enemies, given the kind of friends we have to make do with. Whatever white conservatives can do, white liberals can do even better and they sometimes even pride themselves on that. Sad, but predictable.
OK, time to jump back in – boy has this thread been busy! Thanks folks.
LL – You said: “I’m assuming that being a ‘racist’ implies that person’s ethical defect; I can’t accept the idea that someone is reprehensible for the action or situation into which she/he was coerced into. If ‘racist’ only means a person’s situation that she/he was placed into (getting priviledge) without ethical connotations it would be different, but the term is hardly used in that way.”
try this on: not all racists are bad people. Racism is bad, yes, but not everyone complicit in it is necessarily a bad person. People aren’t just the things they do; bad acts doesn’t necessarily equal bad person. Also: I think Max said it well when he said “accessory after the fact” – white people have been given unearned privileges after a long history of oppression, and although I wasn’t personally involved in those things, I’m benefitting from it now. It’s like blood money – living off the avails of crimes against humanity. So while I personally have never stolen anyone’s land, or owned a slave, I have benefitted from those white people who came before me who did do those things, and more. I’ve also been raised within a culture that says in many ways that it’s okay to do these things to people of colour. White liberals have gone and set up all kinds of human rights accords and declarations against discrimination, but what white society does is a different story. Racism is built into the mainframe of white society; I can’t have been raised here and avoided it. So, as a white person, I am morally responsible: the hard work of my white ancestors in creating this unbalanced society culminates in me and other white people living today. I am responsible to do what I can to stop this cycle.
Also, I think the way “racist” is used is part of the problem, because white folks have set the system up, including the language. We’ve decided that “Racist” should only be used to describe morally defective people who hold particular sets of beliefs and perform particular sets of acts. Again, acts don’t make identity.
The argument that “you can’t help white privilege, you didn’t ask for it or create it for yourself” is too libertarian for my taste. We don’t create our own realities in completion: we get born into social systems that pre-determine our realities, allow us to choose from a limited set of options (some more limited than others). You know this, and agree, but you’re still clinging to some libertarian underpinnings; of course, since that’s the dominant discourse in the west. Take a look at some philosophical compatibilism: the idea that determinism and free will are compatible rather than at odds.
I understand the association fallacy, but, I don’t see any white people refusing their privilege, or even how that would be possible. I don’t think it’s possible, in fact, because the privileges afforded white people aren’t necessarily concrete things, they are also ideological, and deeply ingrained, and given without thought and received without thought. I guess I don’t agree that it would be possible for a white person to reject his or her privilege under this system. Because the system itself is based on privilege and subjugation. What I do think is possible is for white folks to work together with people of colour to overturn the racist system itself.
Lastly, while I agree that the west is becoming increasingly multicultural and diverse, I think it’s still safe to say that those who drive the west in terms of power are white.
Matthew – thanks for forcing me to further elucidate my position. You said, “If enough of us became self-aware, would your white=racist theory become obsolete?”
No, if enough of us became self-aware and stopped systematically dominating the rest of the world, THEN my white=racist theory would become obsolete.
Remember, the whole problem isn’t about biology… “white” is socially culturally historically constructed, made up, not objective. It’s REAL, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not based or rooted in anything… there are so few biological differences between the “races” that it makes no sense to talk about them like we do. The difference between our skin colours and the width of our noses and the length of our foreheads and what our hair is like and the shape of our eyes – this is no basis for the widespread social discrimination between the “races”. It’s that society has valued folks differently (for no good reason, but for arbitrary ones). If we can eliminate that, then racism is over.
you said: “Ironically, for a racism discussion, I think maybe you emphasize being white too much. I guess I see more than just the oppressive brand of racism. I think more about the just plain ignorance and prejudice. Everybody, regardless of skin colour, has their prejudices, judgements and stereotypes. It’s normal human behaviour. But if you think about why you have the opinions you have, for me that’s half the battle.”
I agree with Max – White folks don’t emphasize being white enough. Most white people don’t think of themselves as having a race (just sometimes an ehtnicity, but even then not so much, at least not in north america): white is default. But we’re every bit as racialized as black, brown, asian, native people. White is default – coloured marks the difference from white. And thus, coloured folks become their race. (simone de beauvoir is so friggin useful!)
And because of this, yes, everyone discriminates. But not everyone has the ability to oppress. Racism isn’t just discrimination, it’s oppression.
But, yes, I think you are right: we especially, as white folks, need to examine why we have the opinions we have, and that is half the battle. But the problem is quite literally that we can’t get outside our own skin to do it.
thanks!
Sage – sorry your comment got munched. mine have been getting munched lately too, and it’s my friggin’ blog!
anyway, I hear you, with the logical counter-example stuff. I’ve personally always had a problem with counter-examples… because I don’t think they necessarily disprove anything. Because it’s possible for a white person to refuse his or her privilege, doesn’t mean that there exists even one white person who has. And because some white privilege isn’t really anything that can be refused, I still don’t buy it. I can’t refuse, for example, the fact that I can buy band-aids that match my skin colour more or less, and black folks can’t. I could try to lobby J&J to make band-aids in a variety of different skin tones, but that’s the extent of refusing that privilege. you know?
I need my philosophy to be more organic than logical equations.
Also, as I said above in repsonse to LL, I don’t actually think it’s possible for white people to reject their privilege under the current system. Not consistently enough to really make the counter-example work.
DBB – yes, not all white males have power. But they do have privilege. Power structures are informed by lots of different stuff, intersectional identity that includes race, sex, gender, class, ability, religion… all kinds of stuff. But just because a person doesn’t experience class privilege doesn’t mean they don’t experience race or gender or sex or sexuality or ability privilege. Don’t confuse capitalism with privilege and power. we all experience privilege, but it doesn’t mean we all have power all the time – we also all experience some form of subjugation.
Also, as a side note, there are lots of different kinds of power, as well: power over, power within, power to, power with. Here’s an excerpt from a comment I made on this post:
Power isn’t necessarily zero-sum, which opens up the possibility for escaping a power-over model and subverting it.
Steve – actually, I agree with everything you said, particularly about standpoint, that we can’t konw everything about a thing because our perception is coloured by what our position is.
It’s what you didn’t say that I don’t agree with. You didn’t carry that thought through, to the completion that this is exactly what I’m talking about with white racism. White people aren’t in the correct position to determine what is and is not racism! Because we don’t experience racism! We may experience discrimination based on our race, but that is not racism: racism is a system of structural oppression that privileges some (whites) and subjugates others (everyone who isn’t white). So yes, what you’re saying is right, but you need to finish the thought.
Thanks!
Ann – I like what you said about difference not being accepted. Also, the difference that we’re talking about is a social construct – not based in any biological reality. This is important to keep in mind, I think, because it drives home that these differences we are basing our entire social order on are fucking MINISCULE! The similarities between folks that are cast as so vastly different because she produces more melanin than he does are much more cause to celebrate than the differences are cause to oppress.
I’m in complete agreeance with you about white feminism. It’s so unfortunate that you had that experience with the other white feminists you were engaged with. It’s so fucking unhelpful to talk about gender trumping race, one being “worse” than the other, when they INTERLOCK to create a holistic experience that can’t be separated or divided up into “this part of your oppression is due to your race, and this part is due to your gender.”
And I LOVE your point that black women were doing “Feminist” work long before it got co-opted by white women in the 60s. This is why I completely understand Alice Walker’s “womanism”. It’s just more of, here come white people (women) on the backs of black people (women) to ride on their work and twist it and theorize it and use it for themselves without much thought to who they have appropriated it all from.
L>T – thanks for your comments. Something struck me that I wanted to touch on: the part about defensiveness. This is, I think, one of the ways that white people maintain their position of power over people of colour, by reacting defensively, and putting the onus back onto people of colour for having the audacity to point out white racism as they experience it (white people call this “being uppity”, right?). Whites react all hurt and upset by being called a RACIST, and how dare you say that to me I AM NOT (because they think that “racist” = racist ACTS and they’ve ‘never done anything mean to a person of colour’ so they can’t possibly be responsible for racism) – and then the person of colour is the big bad guy for simply speaking his or her truth. It’s a devious and underhanded way to maintain white power. Another way, I think, is to insist that whites experience racism, when what they mean is that whites can experience discrimination based on their race. The two are not the same. by a million miles. Another way is to denounce the person of colour for reacting too emotionally, a trick used on women as well, and not giving POC anger its rightful uptake and acknowledgement. It becomes “you’re too hostile and upset to talk to rationally about this, I can’t hear you when you couch everything in anger.” It’s just a way to deflect white responsibility and maintain oppressive power.
I’m glad you brought up defensiveness, I don’t think it was adequately addressed before.
Schemanista – yes yes yes. thanks for your comments. and for linking to Max’s post, that one hit me too, it’s so fucking simple. love it.
Tracey – thank you, and welcome, I’m glad to have your voice here as well. I had read that post of yours, I liked it very much but I don’t think I commented. I’ll have to get that book with my Chapters gift cards from Xmas!
Lloyd – thanks for your comment. I appreciate your position. What white folks need to realize is that we don’t get to say what is and isn’t racism – people who experience racism do. So we need to STFU and listen for a change instead of talking all over it all the time.
Clio – thank you. I appreciate all your questions, about how do white folks go forward from here. I don’t know. It seems like we need a more widespread collective understanding about what it is we as white people are doing in terms of racism and privilege. Because by jsut the comments here on this one post, there’s still a lot of denial and maybe refusal to understand. It seems like white folks are only willing to go so far in agreeing to what racism is… only as far as their own nose. Once it hits their own white skin, then the denial starts.
Something Max said to me when he was engaging with me about this was to stop thinking about it in terms of theories. Stop intellectualizing racism as a “theory”, stop using theories to try to explain what racism is. Start feeling my way through it, and listening and accepting, rather than do the old philosophical counter-example trick, defending a theoretical position. Start accepting that there are things that I can’t know, I can’t learn, I can’t feel, about racism, because I’m not positioned in such a way to know and learn and feel them. This was hard, for a Thinking Girl. (which is kind of funny, my name, because as much as I think, I feel just the same. I would say more than my head, my heart has ruled my life. I tend to go with my gut, my feeling, rather than what is rational or logical all the time.) It was also not a hard leap to make intellectually, because I believe in standpoint epistemology! Or maybe, it was a short leap over a really deep scary abyss.
But that was exactly the right note for me – a reminder to feel it instead of think it. maybe that’s why what Max told me helped.
So, what else can we white folks do? I’m not sure I’m in a position to answer that! Anyone else?
Max – thank you for everything you’ve said here. I couldn’t agree more. I have nothing to add. Keep speaking your truth – to power!
DBB said: “Because I don’t have any special power. That’s the big lie. That being white means you have power.”
This is the Big Lie; being white DOES mean you have power on the basis of simply being white. You were born on the the 50 yard line in a hundred yard race. You don’t have to feel you have it to have it. In fact, denying that you have it will keep your racial advantage intact longer. You can pretend to not notice, just like some white people pretend that racism doesn’t exist and that this is a meritocracy.
Lies, lies, lies.
Oh, also, I remembered this article: White Woman Feminist by Marilyn Frye. It’s interesting, check it out and let me know what you think. helpful/unhelpful?
I’m in a minority far smaller than African-Americans, a minority that is openly despised by the majority population in this country, a minority that more than any other would be denied power, denied political office solely on the basis of belonging to that minority. I am an atheist. I know what it means to be in a despised, openly discriminated against minority.
Now, that said, and given how the religious have power in this country and discriminate against the non-religious, does that make everyone who is religious the religious equivalent of a racist?
Sorry, you can’t just wave your hands and declare I have power that I don’t have just because of my skin color. My parents grew up dirt poor. They did not get to where they got because someone handed it to them for their race. They are still not particularly well-off. But they were frugal and they are now semi-retired and they will be able to take care of themselves. No one gave them anything.
I think those who just blanket call everyone of a certain color a racist are being bigots and are part of the problem. Categorizing someone as something solely based on their race is racist. It is a bald-faced lie to say otherwise. I think the saddest thing is that those who say that are lying to themselves. Blaming others for their own failures.
Where I think I’ve lost out due to discrimination against atheists, I’ve just seen it as my own failing at not succeeding despite my obstacles. I don’t blame others for my own failures. I could have tried harder. Everyone has obstacles in front of them. Overcoming them just makes you stronger.
I think back now to many classes I’ve had where I’ve heard those who did not get a good grade complaining about how the teacher was against them. Something I never saw, regardless of my own grade. When I did poorly, the only person I ever blamed was myself. Some teachers are harder than others, but that just means some classes require more work for a better grade. People are all too willing to blame their own failures on others. True leaders, true achievers, they succeed because they don’t blame others for their failures, they blame themselves, figure out what they could do differently, then they do it and succeed. They don’t whine about how everyone who looks different from them is just discriminating against them and keeping them down.
And note that this holds true even if there really is this huge conspiracy of racism that some claim there is – you are still responsible for your own success.
The way some talk, we might as well still have slavery, for all the blame they place on those who look different than themselves. They will never be satisfied. If you took them and placed them in a time machine and transported them 10,000 years into the future, into a racist-free utopia, they’d still call people racists, because that is the false filter through which they see everything. Guess what – sometimes when you don’t get a job, it is because the other person was more qualified, not because of your skin color. Sometimes people are just assholes to everyone, not just to those who share your skin pigmentation.
Several jobs I really wanted, I applied for, and I did NOT get. I did not blame anyone for that but myself. The job I have now I only got after a massive amount of work, proving myself, working for free, showing what I was capable of. I originally was turned down for the job. I could have blamed all sorts of things on that. Instead, I decided not to give up and figured out a way I could earn my way to having it. And I did. I got that job, and not because of skin pigmentation. I worked hard to get it. If someone else can’t accept that, then I am sad for them.
DBB: Who knows you’re an atheist until you openly declare it?
Getting something handed to you and having a leg up over others may not be the same thing, but they both involve an advantage over those who are not favored and aren’t handed shit, but rather have their heads held under water while others get to swim unimpeded.
Your arguments are the best evidence of how denial operates. You really know what discrimination is, as a poor, persecuted atheist, but we people of color are simply delusional, unqualified excuse makers!
People who are intellectually dishonest, who can’t see blatant patterns right in front of their face are what keeps this racist engine humming along. Whites who haven’t cashed in their unearned privilege like some of their brethren get mad at people of color for it.
Its not my fault you haven’t taken full advantage of the racist lottery you won at birth. That shit is on you.
Dude, you’re refusing to look at anything deeper than the surface because to do so would make your illusions crumble like the levees in New Orleans. I KNOW that you know that being white means something besides just being a ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ individual. But being white means never really having to look at shit, mystifying what is and applying bogus justifications for what is. You know this because you are a so-called atheist who, I’m sure, prides himself on picking apart religious hypocrisy. Yet you refuse to even consider looking at let alone picking racism apart. The earth is still flat.
Your failure to pick apart the REAL religion of this European culture – Racism/White Supremacy is probably because that is YOUR closet theology, not some jive atheism. The Last Poets did this song called “The White Man Has A God Complex.” I hear the strains of that in all of what you say.
There is no God because YOU are God, your infallible intellect that knows what a black person could never know; there is NO racism and certainly not a racism that gives you a leg up. No, you and only you make things happen in your life. There is no spirit or spiritual, there is no collaboration or conspiracy, there are no obstacles erected for some and privileges for others. There is only the God of YOU.
Yes, you are a minority of one: the white man as GOD. You are the victim because people like me won’t acknowledge you as you hang from the cross, the real victim of racism, the white man.
DDB: First of all, this is a conversation about racism, not oppression in general. While other forms of oppression and discrimination are certainly worth discussing, your willingness to equate the experience of racism with what you feel as an atheist and your ability to “get over it” is beyond insulting. Being discriminated against as an atheist and living as a visual minority in a racist culture are VERY different realities.
Secondly, the size of one’s oppressed group, (re: “I’m in a minority far smaller than African-Americans”) doesn’t get you pity points here. We’re used to discussing oppression against the BIGGEST oppressed group (speaking in population size) in North America: Women.
White privilege isn’t about getting your white person cheque on a silver platter, in many cases it is much, much sublter than that, and we are in a liberatarian society which tells us everything we’ve got is because we worked for it. While I applaud your tenacity and ability to finally get the job you wanted, but it doesn’t speak to any of the points which have been posted so far.
I suggest you look again at the link “unpacking the knapsack” in TG’s post, it’ll help ellucidate some of the power you have, even the power that’s not financial.
I think you’re the one with the false filter here. What’s going on in this conversation is not about whining, it’s about realizing who we are as a culture and as individuals and how we fix that.
…or what Max said.
You posted as I typed, thanks!
First off, I’m not picking your comments apart to argue with you. Because, I don’t want to argue but to understand. & It’s not that I think you or the freeslave, & who ever else who agrees are wrong or anything. I don’t know what to think, myself, because I’ve never been asked to consider racism in this way: (I’ve always used the definition in this paragraph; Also, I think the way “racist” is used is part of the problem, because white folks have set the system up, including the language. We’ve decided that “Racist” should only be used to describe morally defective people who hold particular sets of beliefs and perform particular sets of acts.)
Not only do you cut off all avenues of escape, you define racism.
your definition: To be white is to be racist. To be white in a world where white is right, where white is might, is to be racist. It’s inescapable.
I’ll consider that. & I’ll also accept the rules :
Stop intellectualizing racism as a “theory”, stop using theories to try to explain what racism is. I think this comes down to don’t distance yourself from it. OK!
Whites react all hurt and upset by being called a RACIST. OK, I won’t do that
Another way, I think, is to insist that whites experience racism, OK, I won’t do that either
Another way is to denounce the person of colour for reacting too emotionally. that one’s pretty easy.
Accept to be born white is to be born privileged. I agree with that, so OK.
To try to convince you that I’m not racist is pointless. Because, you don’t leave any outs.
so, I’d have to say by your definition, I am a racist because I’m white. No getting around that.
I do have a problem with your generalizations, for example:
You said this:([by implication]white people call this “being uppity”, right?)
& this: then the person of colour is the big bad guy for simply speaking his or her truth.
& freeslave says: But being white means never really having to look at shit, mystifying what is and applying bogus justifications for what is.
So now that I’m a “racist” it seems that you can accuse me of anything you want wether I do it or not, because you’ve just put me in the catagory.
You’ll have excuse me if this is a little hard getting used to.
I never said there was no such thing as racism. I object to the use of the term as applied to an entire class of people, regardless of who they are or what they’ve done. That, to me, is the thinking of one who IS a racist. Or certainly a bigot.
And just because there is racism, that doesn’t mean everything that happens is about racism. Class trumps race every single time. If you doubt it, then see how someone who is a billionaire gets treated by others who know they are a billionaire, and see if it truly varies by the race of the billionaire. See if someone who is a Senator who is known to be a Senator is treated any differently based on their race. I’d bet good money that wealth and power will be all that matters in such treatment.
I find it somewhat humurous to have all sorts of charactatures placed on me simply for my race. To do such a thing, to me, is the definition of a racist. You don’t see me as a person, you see me as a whitey. I find it even more humorous to see your equation of atheism with some sort of self-delusion of godhood. Nice to see you have that sort of bigotry in full force as well.
You know, whatever racisim there is in the world, you will not help matters by giving blanket inuslts to entire races. As far as I’m concerned, doing so makes you part of the problem, not the solution. One can always find some historical wrong if you look hard enough. Holding onto them is a way to keep hatred and warfare going indefinitely. Witness the Sunnis and the Shia. Witness the Israelis and the Palestinians. At some point, someone needs to bury whatever was wrong in the past or you will just have an eye for an eye until the whole world is blind.
TG, I agree with a lot of what you say, but some of it strikes me as a bit self-congratulatory. For instance, you write:
It seems like white folks are only willing to go so far in agreeing to what racism is… only as far as their own nose. Once it hits their own white skin, then the denial starts.
And elsewhere, you write:
It’s like admitting that you’re an alcoholic – it’s the first step in racism rehab. Or something like that. You gotta own it before you can change it.
Isn’t the claim that you’re one of the small minority of anti-racist whites who acknowledges the universality of white racism a similar kind of back-patting, in some ways, to the claim that you’re one of the small minority of whites who isn’t racist at all?
Let me put it another way. You say that for a long time you believed that you weren’t racist, and then a couple of months ago you realized that you are racist, because all whites are racist. But that redefinition, as valuable as it may be, doesn’t really disturb your self-perception, does it?
On the one hand, yes, it requires that you identify yourself as a racist. But it’s not anything about you that makes you a racist, other than your whiteness, not anything that you can work on, or do anything about. On the contrary, the very act of declaring yourself a racist is itself evidence of your anti-racism.
It seems to me that if you declare that everyone who benefits from white privilege is a racist by definition, you’re conflating two distinct concepts for no obvious benefit. White babies are presumably likely to receive better better treatment in hospital emergency rooms than black babies, but does that mean that white babies are racist? I don’t see how it advances our understanding of racism to say so.
To acknowledge the possibility that non-racist whites may exist is, it seems to me, a more humble and more radical statement than the blanket one you’ve made. After all, your statement, “to be white is to be racist,” is far less of a challenge than something like this…
“I don’t know if it’s possible to be white and not be racist. I hope it is. But I do know that I, myself, am racist.”
…or even this:
“Yes, it’s possible for a white person to not be a racist. But I know I’m not such a person, and I seriously doubt that you’re one either.”
Great Article congrats
I struggle with this myself. As an adopted person, I appear white, although my actual race is unknown; therefore, I benefit from white privilge based strictly on superficial things like skin tone. At the same time, I’m never quite sure if I deserve the I “pass” I’m getting, you know?
As an individual, I understand my racist impulses, a product of my immediate socialization and the world around me. (Although I would have chosen the black doll as a child, if it had to be a doll and not, say, a pony, because it happened to be my favorite color.) My ideology is always hailing me, and I must constantly choose to resist it. I have no problem, none, accepting that I have benefited from my perceived race. And that to a certain extent I am complicit in racism because there have been times I’ve allowed myself to “pass,” in MacIntosh’s words: I have not refused to “be part of the white club.” I could justify some of those times with safety concerns, social niceties, or what-have-you, but there are times I flat-out let it go simply because it is easier or to my advantage to do so. So I’m a solopsistic, ethnocentric pragmatist. I’m white and I’m racist.
So how does that translate into I’m a racist BECAUSE I’m white?
In strictest terms, a racism has a two-part definition: 1) recognizing differences between races of people and 2) believing that one’s race is superior to others. In the first sense, borne out by the entries here, every one of us is racist. But in the second part, I begin to experience a real discomfort. I don’t believe my race is superior to anyone’s…but herein lies the rub!…I also have a hard time accepting that my race is responsible for institutionalized oppression. Here’s where I start to squirm and splutter the “yeah buts.” For the sake of discussion, I’ll share them with you.
What I see in PoC’s comments on here regarding racism seems to focus heavily on the history of race–white women’s refusal to oppose slavery, for example, makes white women today racist. Yet at the same time, my family (great uncles) personally sacrificed their status and wealth in opposition to slavery; later, they and their sons were lynched due to participation in the Underground Railroad…At the same time, I had family members who did not mention a person’s race without some identifying adverb: “lazy Mexican,” “dirty black,” “sneaky Jew.” So my immediate family’s history doesn’t give me a clear indication.
I teach college writing, primarily to preperatory/remedial students–most of whom are minority students. I have the credentials and could teach in an “Ivory Tower”; instead, I teach where and whenever I can, driving a 16 year old vehicle, having no health insurance, and working a second or third foodservice job while many of my former classmates are tenured. Oh but the response is so heartwarming: my students (and their parents) have accused me of being racist because I am very demanding. They don’t/won’t acknowledge that since they don’t have the benefit of white privilege to fall back on, their only option is to become educated: to learn to speak and write in such a way as to be sure their voice is heard. I’ve been accused of attempting to “colonize” my students because I demand they write in “standard English.” I can’t change the system, so I am trying to teach others to negotiate within it. In my mind, I do what I am doing to open opportunities for as many of my students to access at least ONE avenue of power (education) with which to fight their oppressors; however, the students who do respond positively are often labeled by their peers as “acting white” and “selling out.”
I’m not saying any of this to try and earn “a good white folk” award. I could not care less what either white or PoC think about me: if I did, I would lose my damned mind. Whitefolk call me a race traitor, and PoC have said I do what I do out of “white guilt.” Bullshit! What I do, the small part I have in rejecting the privileges of my apparent race, is simply what I SHOULD do.
Ok here we go. At the same time, and here’s where I’ve been stuck for a while…I am not my race, any more than one of my students “is” black or Hispanic or Asian. Now, I know that race for all of us is always already there, but at the same time there is more to us than our race–this is especially clear to me as a person of unknown ethnicity. Precisely how, then, can I as an individual be responsible for the actions of those who happen to share my race any more than an individual person of color be responsible for the actions of those who share his or hers? I share the blame for the actions of my ancestors of the same race…So all whites are racist because some of our race owned slaves: are all people of African descent complicit in their own enslavement because some of their race chose to sell their enemies to the Europeans? All whites are racist because some of our ancestors colonized–so are all indigineous peoples complicit in the utter dissolution of their very culture because some of their race befriended, guided, and assisted those colonizers?
At what point does the race deliniation break down anyway? The biological concept of “race” is fast becoming an empty signifier. DNA and other genetic testing proves humankind as more closely related than we’d thought; further, there are very few racially “purebred” people left in the world, a trend social anthropologists tell us will escalate in the coming years. Most of my circle of acquaintences are multi-racial already–so whose race are they responsible for the sins of? Are we going to go by skin tone–those who “appear white” have oppressed those who “appear non-white?” Or do we go by a social definition of race, maybe racial self-identification–we are whatever race we chose to identify with? That being the case, I simply choose not to identify with white people, thus removing the stigma of racism…there, solved! Yet, I still look white–both white and PoC call me white, so I do benefit from privilege and therefore I must be racist.
*sigh
So, the Cliff Notes version of my post: of course I’m racist and I’m white, but not racist because I’m white.
The word racist is such a loaded word; it certainly does imply some moral defect in an individual rather than participation in an hyper-institutionalized social construct. And by hyper-institutionalized, I mean something so firmly in place that it boggles the mind to even think about overturning it. Certainly, individual acts count for something—the individual white person being aware of his or her privilege, and to the extent possible of giving it up. But how to change the system? Where is Solomon?
P.S. MacIntosh could stand to update her article…for instance, her bandage example? NuSkin. It’s a clear liquid applied to wounds that is transparent, so one’s own color shows thruough. I’m joking; but would that all examples of inequity were as easily dealt with.
So clearly, its beyond some people here to think outside of their own white box. C’est la vie. I’m impressed that there are a number of people here who DO have the capacity to see the many layers of the onion beyond the surface. The surface layer is the blindfold and most whites like the fit; to take it off and to do what John Lennon suggests: ‘try to see it my way’ takes guts. My hats off to those folks who are doing that.
Thanks TG!!
If the word “racism” is defined as TG says; “not everyone complicit in it (racism) is necessarily a bad person”; then I agree with you, or rather, that’s what I’ve been saying. I’ve said that white people are benefiting from the privileges but they are not guilty. That’s why I said they were not racists, but if you call it “racist”, it’s just a matter of naming. And I think the word “racist” has such strongly negative connotations in English precisely because racism is considered as such an evil in the modern West.
The best solution is to stop looking at people’s skin colour. Surely, affirmative action is justified; but to call white people “racist” just because they are treated favourably by some is not the best solution. Some people judge others on the basis of their race, and this is REALLY racist. And when the real racists treat all white people better than all non-white people, all white people get privilege by being treated better. But you can’t decide how you are treated by others; while you can decide how you treat others. Everyone has the responsibility not to TREAT others on the basis of skin colour, but not the responsibility not to BE TREATED on the basis of skin colour (refusing the white privilege), because each individual doesn’t have control over how others treat her/him and they simply can’t fulfill that responsibility.
“Overturning the racist system itself” is fantastic, but how can we achieve this goal? Not by saying white people are racists. I totally agree with your point that “Most white people don’t think of themselves as having a race… white is default” while other “races” are forced to think of themselves as a “race” because of racism. But I think the answer doesn’t lie in white people considering themselves as a “race”, but in non-white people being able not to consider themselves as a “race”.
For the concepts of the “West” and “white”, when we talk about white privilege in the West that some treat white people better than the others on the basis of skin colour, it is appropriate to use the term “white”. But when we discuss the global domination of the West on others, I believe we should use the “West” not “white”. You said “those who drive the west in terms of power are white”, yes most of them have white skin, but why do you care about their skin colour when we can just talk about the Western power without references to their skin colour? There is a minority of non-white people in the West, even in power, and they are part of the West, so please don’t ignore them.
Also, a standpoint epistemology is interesting and I’m not really against it, but there is an issue of verifiability. When you say you can’t know something because of your standpoint, what is the basis of believing and accepting things said by someone from another standpoint? How do you know things you can’t know and learn are true, if you can’t know and learn them?
Excellent post! I am white, was raised by college educated parents, who never said racist things, or taught me racism, and yet I struggle against my own racist attitudes on a daily basis.
It is everywhere in white society. And like carbon monoxide, it is odorless and invisible, and by the time you realize what is happening, it has poisoned you.
I will spend the rest of my life combatting racism in the world around me – the first step is fighting it in myself.
Nice article TG.
In regard to your ‘To be white is to be racist” sentiment, have you ever thought about it this way: To be human is to abuse power.
Seems to me power structures are everywhere (Government, sex, friendships, etc) and more often than not someone has more than the other.
I can’t agree with everything you are saying because I think putting too much emphasis on one kind of power abuse would be legitimizing the idea that the general abuse of power, in whatever form, is not a central part of human existence.
Go to a school cafeteria and enjoy the cruelty.
Great post. Just knowing how to be fair with other races/religions/genre is not enough, although it’s better than nothing. We must take action in our daily lives in our decisions, thinking, etc to change the world for a better place.
The problem with all this white “mea culpa” is it has some unintended, rather unsavory byproducts.
Around 10 years ago I was reading a series of articles in the Los Angeles Times about an alarming resurgence of the white supremacist/Hitlerist movement among young whites. It seemd to be concentrated in LA’s San Fernando Valley and outlying counties. When the reporter questioned many of these young people about how they came to the white power movement and why they thought it was a good thing, many of them cited the racial ideologies of Malcolm X and the speeches of Louis Farrakhan. They enthused about the black racial identity promoted by these men and felt that the most natural thing to do was for whites to develop a counterpart racial identity politic—-much to the horror of their conventionally liberal parents.
When you cnstantly emphasize the “natural racism” of white people you are honing a double edged sword. In the interest of promoting self awareness and change, you could be—especially for the very young, as we have seen—unwittingly providing a justification for an overt racist movement.
DBB – being an atheist and being visibly racialized are not even nearly on the same page. You really can’t mean to compare oppressions, can you? Jeez, that happens all the time with white people in discussions about race – why would that be? Because white people want to be the ones who define what racism is, maybe?
Like Max says, the individualist argument that this society is a meritocracy is just plain wrong. I’m so sick of hearing about the GD “american dream” – it’s a slap in the face to people who are systematically oppressed by such ridiculous categories as race and gender and sexuality and class. There so-called “american dream” is a nightmare for too many, and an inside joke for too few.
As for your “class trumps race” bullshit, have you ever thought about perhaps WHY “people of colour” are so often THE SAME GROUP as “the poor” in our culture? Here in Canada, the poorest people are our aboriginals. you think that has absolutely nothing to do with the way they have been colonized by white society since we got here and stole their land? WAKE UP.
As far as your claim that calling whites racist is part of the problem and is itself racist, well, you clearly don’t understand what I’ve been saying about institutionalized systematic oppression, and how reacting in that way is yet another display of white privilege and an attempt to maintain power structures. Go back and read it all again, DBB. And take M suggestion and re-read the MacIntosh article. Try to “get it” – I know you’re a smart guy. But your privilege is oozing.
M – thanks!!!!!
L>T – thanks for commenting again. Yes, it is uncomfortable. It’s not nice to have this hit you in the face – it’s no wonder white people react with such vehement denial, ’cause it’s no fun to think about yourself in these terms, to take it to heart. You’re doing well to follow those “rules” and try to engage with this.
I want to make one thing absolutely clear. I personally do not believe that anything is “innate.” You know I’m a social constructionist, so for me, NOTHING is innate; most everything is either completely taught or is an interaction between biology and society. Therefore, I don’t hold that white folks are racist by simply being born white. I hold that white folks are racist by being born white into a white-dominated and -controlled society. If our society changed and it was no longer white-dominated, this whole thing would fall apart. And that’s part of the point: we’re talking about social context here, a social context that our ancestors created and we have maintained and tweaked to our own advantage over POC. It’s not our white skin that’s the problem, it’s the value we who have set the rules have given to that white skin over and above darker skin.
My intention isn’t to accuse YOU personally of anything; I think that’s clear enough, right, particularly since you want to understand and get inside of this for yourself and not simply react defensively. What I was talking about with the examples you pulled out were typical kinds of reactions white folks have to this, and the ways they try to wiggle out of owning their racism by putting it back on people of colour (or, white people who “take their side” or whatever, like I just got accused of by DBB as being “part of the problem.”) You haven’t done those things, you’ve just reacted with an attempt to understand.
It can be hard getting used to it, because we have constructed “RACIST” as something really heinous and it shouldn’t necessarily be taken that way… it’s not a binary “good guy=not racist”/”bad guy=racist” thing. We’re all racist, as white folks – that’s the point, ALL of us, even the nice neighbours and the sweet old ladies and the kindly co-workers and the smart university-educated lawyers. And it’s NOT really our fault, we were born into this society as it was already constructed – what IS our fault is that we maintain it when POC have also been born into this society and it hurts them in ways they have done nothing to deserve.
Brooklynite – hi there, thanks for coming by, and welcome. Thanks too for your comment, which I found very stimulating.
Yeah, I get what you’re getting at. You see folks like me who say we understand our positions as white in a white dominated society to mean we are racist as the new “I’m not a racist”. Importantly, though, what I’m saying is that I AM racist, I’m trying to deal with that, and I present myself as an (imperfect) ally to POC. And it has COMPLETELY changed my self-perception to do so.
I can’t say I’ll ever NOT be racist, because it’s been so ingrained in me for so long. I can be anti-racism or an anti-racist ally, but I’ll never be in the position of not being white in a white-dominated society (sorry, pessimistic nihilism creeps in on me from time to time).
If you think it’s somehow comfortable for me to say “Hi, I’m TG, and I’m a white racist” – you’re dreaming. Take a look at these comments to see what I mean – white folks don’t like to hear this stuff. It doesn’t exactly make me the most popular kid in school. This was the hardest amount of personal work I’ve ever done. And it’s not over, I’m not sure it will ever be over. All I can say is that I’ve taken the first step by understanding a definition of racism that isn’t white-defined. It’s not MY re-definition; it’s a re-definition that came by listening instead of talking at and over people of colour. And I think this re-definition is a hell of a lot more useful than the same-old same-old “not all white people are racist, and racism goes both ways” kind of structure. How can I say that there may be people out there who are white and not racist? We live in a white-dominated society that white people maintain everyday! I’ve never met a white person who turned down unearned white privilege! My guess is that the white people who are closest to not being racist would self-identify as racist! And that’s all I’m trying to do, is understand how racism works and where I fit in. I don’t want to be racist. I don’t want to contribute to POC oppression. I don’t want to have privileges that others don’t get because I’m white and they’re not – I want everyone to be treated with respect and dignity. This desire not to be racist drove my denial for christ sake. But I can’t avoid it; I will always be treated by other people as a white person. And the mere possibility of a white person existing who isn’t racist isn’t enough. It might be possible, but is it actually true is the more important question. And personally, I don’t think it is.
that’s all I have to say about that.
Samiha – thank you, and thanks for coming by!
Prosehack – thanks for joining in, I appreciate your comments.
Your definition leaves out racism as a sytem of institutionalized oppression. Also, please understand that “white” is a socially constructed category – as you yourself showed, it isn’t related to genetics, it’s related to visible signifiers. Race is socially constructed, and it changes with history. Remember, at one point there were only Africans.
You’re not racist because there is something innate or inbred or inborn about white people that IS (objectively) RACIST. You’re racist because you’re white in a white-dominated society.
Look, I’m not denying it’s a complicated thing. You’ve asked some interesting and difficult questions, and we all need to think about them… but that doesn’t mean throwing up our hands and denying our moral obligation and responsibility to deconstruct racism as a system of oppression that rules our society. I’m trying to challenge white people to look at race and racism differently than is comfortable for them. Racists aren’t just southern hillbillies with Union Jack flags in their pickup truck windows and white hoods in their closets. Racists are you and me; we are not responsible for creating the system but we are responsible for maintaining it through a skewed intermittant reward schedule.
That’s all I have time for right now, I’ll be back later to respond to the rest of these comments. Thanks everyone!
freeslave:
It looks like you are avoiding dealing with our questions, because being “White racists” we live in a box.
I’m wondering if you’ve even bothered to read or think about what us “White racists” have to say.
Have you ever questioned that maybe you live in a box, too?
Here’s a question for you: If two white guy attack a black guy because they hate blacks, it’s racism, right?
If two black guys attack a white guy because they hate whites, what is it called?… Discrimination?
I’m frustrated about the whole situation, too. But, your premise isn’t good anough.
thinking girl Perhaps we need a new word? I really do feel you are trying to redefine the conventional term “racism”. The problem is that word has too much baggage attached to it.
)
(Doing this has been affective, though
Although, I feel you & freeslave have very valid points, (I do understand what you are getting at) & I agree that POC have also been born into this society and it hurts them in ways they have done nothing to deserve. can’t change be brought about without alienating “people”? I feel we must have a common enemy.
TG, While I grant practically everything you and freeslave have written, I really take issue with the use of the term “racist.” Racism is an attitude; even freeslave admitted that when he said racism = power + prejudice. I think that’s why most commenters here are having such an issue… racism and prejudice are attitudes that people hold about other people. What you’re talking about is benefiting from systematic oppression. If what you’re saying is “white people need to realize that they benefit from systematic oppression,” then yes, I agree. But I really don’t know what good it does anyone to phrase this in terms of racism. The color of your skin doesn’t predicate your beliefs. Suggesting so is, in and of itself, racist in the morally defective sense.
No sane and well-informed person denies the reality and repugnancy of the dominance of Western Civilization. However, this isn’t something that any of us, black or white, can escape. Black and live in the US? Or, hell, any first-world countries? Guess what, you’re stomping on the backs of the poor in the third world just as much as anyone else. Hell, everyone having this conversation funded a civil war. If participation and receiving benefit from a system of dominance is racist, then we’re all guilty, black or white.
LT: I do read what the white folks here write (though sometimes not thoroughly) and I do answer your questions to the best of my ability. Here’s the problem:
from my experience, what happens in these conversations is that most white folks, rather than put the shoe on and wearing it intellectually, emotionally, spiritually – deal with this information like they are stepping on hot coals. They can’t wait to get it over with. Because it makes them ‘uncomfortable,’ its automatically wrong; white folks comfort is paramount.
Whites accuse the person raising the arguments of being insensitive/hurtful (‘the word racism has too much baggage’), of ignoring class, sex, etc. These whites always try to derail the train, rather than riding it and seeing the view courtesy of this sightseeing company with an alternative perspective.
White folks like yourself, rather than going along for the ride and allowing your preconceived notions to be challenged, rather than imagining the possibilities of the hypothesis, you immediately pick it apart, shredding it. (“Its people of color who are furthering racism, they’re racist, too, they aren’t listening to US, they are alienating US, racism is small potatoes”)
To show you the alienation that whites created and maintain is not “me alienating you” with words. The system of racism/white supremacy is maintained by willfully ignorant people who refuse to do what DBB and you are doing: failing to absorb the hypothesis, try on the hypothesis, be the hypothesis for even a moment. Imagine that it is true, rather than doing what your internal programming demands of you, which is to immediately label it false and without merit.
Racism is like depleted uranium: it infects everything and everybody that breathes it in. You breath it in in school, your history books and your English books are full of it; everything on television and in films reflects that racist IT. Why have they made 3 million films about the so-called “Holocaust” and NONE about the Native American HOLOCAUST or the AFRICAN HOLOCAUST? (To brainwash you and keep you ignorant) Because it would expose the racist underpinnings of European/Western/White power. Europe didn’t get to be Europe, nor did America get to be America without a total commitment to racism as the master tool and the master plan. And in 2007, the beat goes on.
Because I am a man of color, I am infected with the disease as well. Lucky for me, because the society reacts to me as a threat, the racist lullaby doesn’t entirely take. Cuz the society isn’t structured for me, I am daily offered evidence of its true nature and how it really feels about people like me.
But I’ve been in as much denial of what is as you. I’ve tried to buy into this meritocracy myth; I’ve tried to be white; I’ve tried to be mimic my masters; I’ve tried to tone down race and tried to just get along. But that shit doesn’t work because as long as Western society is rotten to its racist core, they will ALWAYS view nonwhites as a threat to be controlled, minimized, diminished, raped, slaughtered.
Your white society rubs our face in its hatred of us and somehow, you don’t even know its happening. So my job is to make you FEEL. Not think. Your thinking is colonized, your thinking is controlled by your thorough, 24/7 brainwashing. I write the way I do to bypass your head and to go to your emotions. I want white people to get pissed off – welcome to the human race. You should be pissed off at what racism does to us AND you. Staying trapped in the prison of your brain won’t do.
Once you “get over it,” perhaps you’ll feel your way into “answers that answers and explanantions that explain.” Maybe you’ll feel your way into the experience that some of us are talking about, rather than using the compromised organ that got us here in the first place.
Thanks, TG, for a thoughtful and open response — maybe a more open response than I deserved.
You see folks like me who say we understand our positions as white in a white dominated society to mean we are racist as the new “I’m not a racist”. Importantly, though, what I’m saying is that I AM racist, I’m trying to deal with that, and I present myself as an (imperfect) ally to POC. And it has COMPLETELY changed my self-perception to do so.
Right. I absolutely get that, and looking back on my comment, I see it was harsher than I intended. And I do think that it’s right and appropriate — essential, even — for an anti-racist white person to acknowledge his or her racism.
What I’m not sure of is whether that self-acknowledgment needs to go hand-in-hand with a blanket statement about other whites.
If you think it’s somehow comfortable for me to say “Hi, I’m TG, and I’m a white racist” – you’re dreaming.
I absolutely don’t think that. I think it’s a courageous thing you’re doing here. But I will say, gently, that it’s got to be a little more comfortable to say you’re a white racist if you’re thinking that other white people are in that same boat with you.
It’s not MY re-definition; it’s a re-definition that came by listening instead of talking at and over people of colour.
It’s both, and it’s important to acknowledge that it’s both. You didn’t just pick some random person of color out and ask her what racism was, you entered into a critical dialogue with people you respect. Your own re-definition emerged out of that dialogue, and that’s as it should be.
No white person can come to an understanding of racism without listening conscientiously to what people of color have to say. But ultimately all of us, of whatever race, need to arrive at our own conclusions and own them for ourselves.
And I think this re-definition is a hell of a lot more useful than the same-old same-old “not all white people are racist, and racism goes both ways” kind of structure.
Absolutely. I agree one hundred percent. If I’m challenging you, it’s challenging you to go further, not to go back.
How can I say that there may be people out there who are white and not racist? We live in a white-dominated society that white people maintain everyday! I’ve never met a white person who turned down unearned white privilege!
And that’s an important statement to make, and an important difference between us.
I’m a historian of American social activism. Because of that, I’ve had the opportunity to meet and get to know white people who’ve devoted their lives to anti-racist activism. I’ve written about — literally walked in the footsteps of — white people who’ve given their lives in the fight against racism. That’s where I’m coming from.
I don’t know how many of those folks would call themselves racists. I know that I’m uncomfortable saying that they are. And one of the things I’m doing in acknowledging my own racism without universalizing it is honoring them.
And the mere possibility of a white person existing who isn’t racist isn’t enough. It might be possible, but is it actually true is the more important question. And personally, I don’t think it is.
This brings up another difference between us — I’m a father of two small children. If I say that I’m a racist, and I’ll always be a racist, I’m saying something about myself. But if I say that all whites are racists, and that all whites will always be racists as long as white supremacy exists, then I’m saying that my daughters and their daughters will never break free, and I’m not willing to say that.
I just realized that I assumed you don’t have kids. Insert a “possible” between “another” and “difference” in my last paragraph above — sorry.
I haven’t read all of the comments here, but I’d like to interject something that I’ve found doesn’t always get made clear.
Let’s say that you said that, as a white person, you weren’t racist. You were non-racist.
Think about that… think about what it would take not to have any of the nasty stereotypes having any hold on you, to have no unwarranted assumptions, to have no petty annoyances.
It might well be that every time you realize that something like that has affected you, you instantly think “wait,” and dissect your thoughts until you find and root out the ugliness inside you.
But that doesn’t mean you’ve gotten all of it. It just means that you’re fighting the battle.
The statement “I am not a racist!” is a defensive one, something that denies that there is any of that ugliness inside yourself. It means that you’re likely further away from rooting out the rest of the racist ideas that are stuck in your head than someone who is willing to accept it. You’re saying that the battle is over, you’ve mastered yourself, and you know something?
If you’re so wise that you truly have mastered yourself, my guess is that you’re wise enough to recognize how hard that is, how rare that is, and thus, to recognize that calling all white folks racist is a pretty safe generality, even if it’s not true in every single case. You won’t reject the statement, even if it isn’t true in your particular case.
It’s not that I would accept the label of racist if given to me by another (depending on the circumstances, I may or may not), but what I won’t do is *deny* that label to myself. Otherwise, it’s too easy for me to ignore my own faults, because I’m not willing to look at them as being as ugly as they are.
Herm. I should note: I’ve been doing Buddhist meditation for a while, and one of the tenets of Buddhism is to learn about yourself without judgment. You accept that you’re greedy, or angry, or mean-spirited, if that’s the root of one or another problem you’re facing. It’s not a matter of blaming yourself or attacking yourself, it’s a matter of recognizing it, so you can change it.
“I am a racist” is not the place where I put on a hair shirt and start flaggelating myself. It’s where I look at myself, and refuse to look away, even if I don’t like what I see, so I can be who I want to be.
So, that’s part of my perspective on this issue.
DBB: “Class trumps race every single time. If you doubt it, then see how someone who is a billionaire gets treated by others who know they are a billionaire, and see if it truly varies by the race of the billionaire. See if someone who is a Senator who is known to be a Senator is treated any differently based on their race.”
I beg to differ. No matter how rich or successful a person is racism and sexism are still pervasive; success cannot make somone immune to experiencing their effects. If that were the case, no one would ever sling gendered slurs at Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi or judge them based on their appearance rather than their politics. Or how about the the fact that a black senator is seen as representing her or his entire race, whereas a white senator is not? And building on what thinking girl said above, the fact that the people who hold wealth and power are overwhelmingly white is a big, glaring indicator that our society is sick with racism. Saying that racism and sexism aren’t a problem and that we are all on a level playing field when it comes to privilege is just another way of saying that women and people of color just must not be as smart or motivated or dedicated or hard-working as all those white men who are leading our government and our corporations and our media. Otherwise, they’d have power in equal numbers instead of being disproportionately impoverished and underrepresented. How can anyone not see the blatant discrepancy there?
I know it has already been pointed out here that class distinction and level of success (like atheism) are different from being “visibly racialized”, as thinking girl put it. I totally agree, but I am reluctant to use the argument that certain differences are more significant simply BECAUSE they are visible, thereby putting racism and sexism on a tier above heterosexism, which is just as rampant in our society. The extent to which one’s difference is obvious may affect one’s vulnerability to overt acts of discrimination and influence his or her access to privilege, but the issue of white supremacy goes much, much deeper than visibility.
I, too, am an atheist, and while I acknowledge that my atheism sometimes results in my being in an uncomfortable situation, this feeling is nothing like, and has nothing to do with, institutionalized racism within our society. I still benefit from white privilege despite my atheism. The type of “oppression” you speak of is more of an “odd man out” feeling that results from being in a numerical minority in a given situation, and it is not the same as oppression experienced by people of color.
Tim, I believe its true that all who pay war taxes contribute to US military adventurism (not all of us pay them); the difference is that there is an “internal war” and has been from day one against the internal colony – the Native American, the black American. What is the drug war and who is it on? Native land is still being encroached on and stolen.
What was Co-Intelpro? A war. But there weren’t a whole lot of phony protest marches for that by latte-liberals. How can any white person draw some equivalence to people of color’s for participating in these racist wars, in this racist culture and that of whites’? Its Native Americans’ fault that whites turned this land into the Fourth Reich? Black people with the foot of the oppressor on their neck (the NBA, Denzel and Clarence Thomas notwithstanding) are somehow equal partners to YOU?
Where were you when Jeb Bush was Jim Crowing the Florida vote? Or black lackey Kenneth Blackwell was doing it in Ohio in ‘04? Yeah, we become equal when its convenient, when we’re traitors to our own race, when the way racism really works is under discussion.
free slave:
Welcome to the human race.
Gee, thanks.
I always thought I was part of of the human race.
Look, I’m a humanist, I love people. An agnostic seclular humanist is how I label myself. I don’t label myself as a “racist”.
How can I do that?
You want me to call myself something that I think is despicable. Of course, using the word “racism” gets to my emotional core. Duh!
I’ve spent my whole life getting to the point of trying to understand myself as a human being, with out those negative labels & you are trying to put one on me that I don’t like, at all!
& Yes, the word “racism” carries to much baggage to inflict it on me.
If you said, ” White racism means ….
& I could say, “Well, Yes but, Black racism means…
I could handle that. But, you are stacking the deck with your interpretation the word.
Even though you might think the world is an uneven playing field, don’t lay it on me. I’ve put up with to much shit from this world, myself.
On the other hand, you & thinking girl have made me think more about this issue & with a different perspective then I ever have before & that is good!
I really like this line of thought because, for one thing I’ve always thought the hold that White supremacy had was tenuous at best & it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.
nice talking to you.
If you don’t have the courage to deal with the word racism and its implications – what would you do if you had to deal with actual racism?
We shouldn’t have to sugarcoat what we see. That’s a huge part of the problem; racism is transmitted in code now more than ever. We live in a euphemistic culture, War Dept/aka/Defense Dept/fantasyland. No, you’re an adult, you should be able to stand the word racism.
When you go to the movies, you suspend your disbelief. Do so here.
Racism is a system that’s all about stacking the deck. I don’t have a deck to stack. Racism isn’t, ‘I hate you because you’re white.’ Or, ‘I’m superior to you because I’m black.’ That’s prejudice. We can all be prejudiced. Prejudice is not racism. Racism is power AND prejudice. Racism is personal/group animus infusing society’s institutions. Its setting up a society and its institutions on the basis of race. Whites set this goverment, set this country up that way. That’s a white phenomenon. There is no black apartheid state, never has been.
You may not like it, but…This process of discussing these issues is necessary. It takes courage to look and it takes mega-courage to see how racism’s touched you.
Nobody is saying white people don’t have to deal with things that are horrible; but precisely because you do, you need to see the hell that other people catch – in your name – in order that the hell that YOU catch is just a little sweeter.
LL – yes, the word “racist” is indeed associated with great evil. Part of what I’m trying to do is to with this post is break apart that association. Because racism isn’t just about ACTS.
I disagree, actually – I think it would be helpful if white people thought about ourselves as having a race, being racialized. Because if we can accept that, then we might understand that “race” is itself not based in biology but sociology, and maybe see the arbitrariness of it all: if things had been different, perhaps it would be white people oppressed by their race. Being able to see arbitrariness is helpful in these matters, I think.
I’m concerned with the comment that “it’s not helpful to call whites racist”. It sounds a little too much like “don’t rock the boat” to me.
Lastly, I see your point about not conflating “west” with “white” – but I still think that racism drives a lot of the domination of the third world by the west, and since the ones who stand to benefit most by such domination are most often white, I think it’s appropriate to talk about the white west. But point taken, I’ll consider that in the future.
I’m not at all concerned about “Verifiability” – I don’t believe in objective truth, so I’m not concerned with whether or not I can verify someone else’s standpoint. I’m more concerned with learning about their standpoint, trying to see the world through their position, and learning how their social position affects them. I’m concerned with how their position might fill in some gaps in my perspective based on my own position, and vice versa.
Clearslate – thanks for your supportive comments, and welcome. Come by anytime.
“The first step is fighting it in myself.” This is all I’m saying.
Carlos – thanks for commenting, welcome. I agree, power structures are everywhere. I don’t know if I agree, though that it is “human nature” or something like it to abuse power. We don’t know what the world would be like if, say, latinos were in power, or women, or gay men or lesbians. It’s not happened that way before, so I don’t know how safe it is to say that if the power roles were reversed, the same story would play out.
MJ – thanks for stopping by, and for your support. I hope to see you again.
Joanne – hmmm, this was an interesting comment, thanks for sharing.
Again, I wonder how close what you’re saying is to “don’t rock the boat.” I mean, every political movement involving social justice has backlash from the ruling class, but that isn’t any reason to stop pushing for change, or to be careful how we word things for fear of offending someone from the ruling class and then subsequently not having them help out the social justice movement. This backlash ultimately comes from a combination of ignorance and (deliberate?) non-understanding of what’s being said, and an unwillingness to give up privilege and instead to do whatever it takes to hang onto it, which popularly seems to be denying that the privilege exists in the first place.
And to be very clear, I am not saying that any group is “naturally” racist – or “naturally” anything. Race is a social cosntruct, not a biological one, and when I say that whites are racist it doesn’t have anything to do with their “nature” – it has to do with the social context into which we’ve all been thrust.
L>T – as far as Max avoiding our white questions and living in his own “box” (which is pretty much exactly what I said to him once upon a time), I thought I should add something to what he said here, which is what he told me at the time: he does extend outside his own experience, all the time. In fact, he has to in order to survive in this white dominated society. He has to learn and understand white culture in order to know how to get by. This is what WEB DuBois called double consciousness – basically that in order to funciton in a society in which you are disadvantaged, you have to understand not only your own culture and how to fit inside that, but also the culture of those in the dominant position. I just thought you might find that helpful.
I’m gonna say the same thing here as I did above: by saying that I’m redefining racism, I say, who decided that racism was to be defined the way it has been? why should people of colour have to abide by a definition that white people have decided upon when their experience of racism doesn’t align. I say “racism” does need to be redefined – we need to stop talking about it like racists are evil because they do evil things. Racism isn’t just about singular acts, it’s about collective oppression.
Also, what you’re saying is that we need to watch how we talk about “Racism” because it will alienate white folks to talk about it this way. That’s a “don’t rock the boat” defense – don’t alienate those in power, because they’ll just get mad and pack up their toys and go home. If we followed this line of thought, no social change would ever take place!
We do have a common enemy, within all of us. That’s where we need to start the fight. Keep on keeping on – that discomfort you’re feeling is a good sign.
thanks for participating L>T, it’s always great to have you around.
Tim – thanks for your comment. same as what I’ve said above, I’m not concerned with the “don’t rock the boat” defense. The point is, yes, the word “Racist” is a hard pill to swallow. It’s not comfortable. Why should it be made more comfortable, for white people’s comfort? history says we can’t rely on white people to always do what’s right. Making white folks feel uncomfortable about racism is a good thing, I think. Supporting, participating in, benefitting from, maintaining racism, well, that’s racism. seems simple enough to me.
And please, can we all get past using the old “discriminating on the basis of skin colour is racist” BS? Racism is systematic oppression.
Brooklynite – fair enough. Thanks for clarifying your position.
maybe this whole post is me being nihilistic and pessimistic. But, I dunno – even the most anti-racist whites I’ve engaged with still acknowledge the ingrained racism they’ve been raised with and into. I just don’t see how a white person can reject white privilege completely, because it’s something that is given and taken all the time without any thought. It’s reflex. So, don’t call all whites racist if you don’t want to. I’m still gonna preserve this as a premise: being white is enoguh reason to be suspected of racism.
sounds like your work is very interesting.
and you guessed right – I don’t have children, niether do I want any. good catch though on the assumption!
longhairedweirdo – awesome, you put it so well, thank you! Yes, this is exactly what I want to emphasize: the general rule that “whites are racist” is meant to be taken as personally as possible, meant to be taken to its deepest root in every person who reads it, not with knee-jerk defensiveness, but with careful consideration and soul-searching. BINGO! thanks for your eloquence.
Tracey – thanks for your comments, again. And yes, you’re right about visibility not being a perfect indicator for oppression, and heterosexism is a perfect example. We all experience privilege and subjugation in our lives, and some group memberships are visible and some are not, and thank you for pointing this out, it is very important.
Freeslave – thanks again my friend!
I absolutely agree that “being able to see arbitrariness is helpful in these matters”, and ““race” is itself not based in biology but sociology”. I’m just concerned that emphasising white ‘race’ may make racial categories matter more in the society, but it may not as you say, it may deconstruct the racial categories. Though I’m still not willing to take an approach to call white people racists myself, I think it’s great to have many different approaches to activism, because the goal is the same, elimination of racism.
If we change the implications of the word ‘racist’, I think we need a new term to call the worst of all racists, right-wing bigots who actively disseminates white supremacy and hatred against non-white people. Because white compassionate liberal humanists are far less ‘racist’ than these conservative racist of racists.
I have a different perspective based on my experience, because I’m not an American or Canadian, and situations here in New Zealand is bit different, so I probably don’t understand racism in North America much. I saw the movie ‘the Freedom Writers’ today, it was one of the best movies I’ve ever seen in my life, I partly understood what’s happening in the USA.
I may not agree with some of your philosophical ideas; I’m not (yet) a complete postmodernist, and though I’m not a big fan of libertarianism I’m an ardent individualist. But I respect your approach to combat this social evil called racism, and I support what you do to eliminate it, though I may not agree with your every single stance.
Thank you for your innovative perspectives and your dedicated activism.
Wow. This discussion is SO much. Early on, Thinking Girl seemed to be taking a lot of heat on the “to be white is to be racist” bit. My black lesbian friend, withdrawn and not an activist by nature, once told me “to be a black lesbian is to be an activist.” Because she can’t help it, what she is is such a *seeming* anomaly to her community, to her family, to her ethnicity, that just by quietly living her life, she is overstepping social boundaries. In many ways, I think the “white racist” thing is similar. Just by quietly living, we are more privileged. By going on that job interview or going into that restaurant (where we may receive better service since oh, the stereotype is, white people tip better), we are disadvantaging others.
But I’m with the athiest on the “original sin/guilt” front. I won’t QUIT living or going after my goals simply because I exist. I won’t exist entirely in retribution. I am not that selfless.
We are all racist. We can’t help but identify with the people who first cared for us, can’t help but be drawn to our own culture in a deep way, even as we may be fascinated by other cultures. (We are not, however, all socially privileged, and not all white people are socially privileged either. Race is a single factor here.)
In her original post, Thinking Girl displays self-awareness, which is crucial. I remember my first realization that I, the oh-so-open-minded-rebel-against-conservative-parents-artsy-girl viewed people on different spectrums on the sole basis of race. It was a very specific event, and it shocked me to find this ugly unfairness in myself. But catching myself that one time has led to an intense effort to self-monitor, which has gone a long way to helping me alter perceptions I at one time thought were infallable.
One more thing. I’m convinced racism is learned. My friend has had foster children that are a different race from her own son. Now, when her son goes to daycare, he is the only child (in a roomful of 3 year olds) that actually places with the single black kid as comfortably as he plays with white kids (so the staff reported to his mother). These little white kids are not intellectually racist. I’m sure they don’t make a conscious decision to not play with the black kid, but the black kid is different from them and from what they know, so they instinctually stay away. She’s not different to my friend’s son. I think this explains, especially in the south, the older generations (even the baby-boomers) more apparent racism. Even post forced-integration, there was community segregation. This of course still exists, but it is getting better. The earlier kids are exposed to different cultures, the better for society as a whole.
I agree that being an atheist is not as visible as skin color, though it can be brought out. But let me back up.
When I was a child, my father showed me a picture. It was from some big family gathering. He pointed out someone in that picture. He said her name was Caroline (though I’m terrible with names, so I could be wrong about that). She was a teenager. Her hair was short, and was in an old style. The picture was I think over 40 years old at the time. I think she would have been like my great aunt. I’ll never forget what he told me next. He said she was the only member of my entire extended family on that side who was not killed by the nazis. Every single other person in that picture, members of MY family were sent to concentration camps, gassed, and murdered as part of an attempted genocide. There were over 30 other people in that picture. You want to talk about discrimination? THAT’S discrimination. I have very little family in this world, and it is because of that.
Calling me, and all white people, racist because of some invisible “privilege” that may or may not exist in any given case, and saying that I don’t really know what discrimination is because I’m white is the sort of blanket, race-based bullshit that I think defines what racism is.
I would not even be alive today if a not for a handful of my family who managed to get out of Europe before that picture was taken. Of course, many countries would not take Jews who were trying to get out. Apparently, the whiteness of their skin was no defense against racism. Yes, in Europe, and in Russia now, being Jew was your “race”. It is even listed that way on passports and official documents.
I know what it is to have one’s family targeted by the absolute worst form of racism. To have genocide attempted against one’s own family. I’m sorry if I don’t get all teary-eyed when someone complains that some vague, unspecified “privilege” is keeping them down. It sounds to me like an excuse. We all have our obstacles. For me, one of my main obstacles was shyness – I simple did not want to deal with people at all. I did not have many friends. I could stay at home for weeks at a time and see no one and talk to no one. Heck, no one who lived next to me would likely even know what race I was because they would never see me. But I have to deal with people as part of my work. I worked hard and overcame that obstacle. Some obstacles are within, some our without, but each individual is responsible for overcoming them. Sitting and whining that you have an obstacle does nothing. I could have whined how the world is unfair in its preference for extroverts. I’m not an extrovert and never will be one. But I can adapt and I can overcome.
I am “white” (despite my very deep colored skin) and I am NOT a racist. Sorry, you can’t label me one simply based on the color of my skin. To even suggest doing so is, to me, racist, because to me, racism is making a judgment about someone solely based on their race. And to me, the only definitions of racism that matter and are legitimate are the race-neutral definitions. Because one you veer off neutral, then you are using the word not as a definition, but as a weapon against one race or another. Then it ceases to have any real meaning at all. (Another phrase already meaningless within the arena of my profession is “judicial activism”)
DBB: Don’t get it twisted; Jews were considered non-white, non-Ayran-others by Hitler’s Germany, in spite of their allegedly “white” skin. That’s the arbitrariness of racism. People who classify themselves as white, victimize people who are classified as non-white, using societal institutions to reinforce that designation. That’s what happens here in the States on the down-low. You don’t care about that.
Interestingly, Jews today are considered white by themselves and by the people who discriminated against them yesterday. And those Jews/Israelis who support Israel no matter what, support racist genocide against Palestinians in 2007.
DBB, if you are Jewish, you have forgotten, “Never Again,” which should apply to all human beings and not just the ‘white Jew.’ I have no sympathy for so-called white people who willfully blind themselves and use their history to justify their current entitlement.
The Jews have gotten the most press, but calling what happened to them “THE” Holocaust is about as racist as it gets. What happened to the twenty million Africans killed in the Congo by King Leopold? Nothing, cuz you never heard about it. How many died during the Middle Passage?What’s happening in Darfur right now? How many Indians were wiped out right here in white America?
But you don’t give a shit about them because they don’t look like you. You don’t give a shit about understanding processes that you’ve never had to think about. And you are proudly ignorant of how racism works cuz it works for you. That’s the definition of a 21st Century racist/white supremacist.
You are a white racist in spite of your “very deep colored skin.” You get to be white because the institutions of this culture define you as such and you and Israel get all kinds of cultural and financial capital to support that designation.
Downplaying color in trying to understand how color is used in this culture is like throwing away forensic evidence at a crime scene in order to figure out who committed the crime. Idiocy.
LL – thanks for your comment. I”m glad this discussion has gotten both of us thinking hard about the issue of race and racism and what we can do to combat racism in ourselves and in our communities. And if we don’t agree 100%, I can live with that!
havemycake – hi again. by the way, I love your screen name!
I agree with everything you wrote. I’m not about to give up all the privileges that come with my white skin (not that I even could), or sacrifice my goals. I hope to own a home one day, which if in Canada will be situated on stolen land. My seat in every university classroom from today until whenever I might be done gathering degrees I will take gladly, even though part of why I have been able to sit there is due to my white skin and the subjugation of POC that has prevented equal access to educational opportunities. The education I will get will be framed by a system that denies voice to people of colour and upholds white social institutions. Each job I get, as a result of that education or not, is a job that will be yet another unequal representation of my race over POC. But I need to feel fulfilled in my life, I need to follow my heart and my dreams. Hopefully by doing this I will be able to ultimately contribute to social justice struggles for equality.
and yeah, racism is definitely learned. I would hate for someone to misunderstand me and think that what I’m saying is that white people are “naturally” racist (or “naturally” anything, for that matter).
DBB – forgive me, but I haven’t said you (or any other white person) are racist simply because of the colour of your skin. I’ve said that you (and other whites) are racist because you are “white” in a white-dominated society. The ideologies you cling to in your comments are only evidence against your argument. It’s these white-constructed and white-maintained ideologies that make you racist, NOT the simple colour of your skin. Can you try to wrap your head around that, please?
you said, “And to me, the only definitions of racism that matter and are legitimate are the race-neutral definitions. Because one you veer off neutral, then you are using the word not as a definition, but as a weapon against one race or another. Then it ceases to have any real meaning at all.”
Dont you see how the “race-neutral” definition of racism that you so ardently insist upon is preceisely what is used “as a weapon” against people of colour? by insisting that whites experience racism too, all you’re doing is maintaining white domination. You’re trying to control the definition of something that you don’t even experience!!!!! How is that productive and encouraging racial equality, when you won’t even acknowledge the experiences of racism people of colour have every day in white-dominated society? It’s not fair! you’re defining the rules such that POC’s experiences are erased, meanwhile refusing to do any kind of self-examination at all! And by insisting you’re not a racist, well, kind of is the point of this whole post, and all these comments. Sorry, but yes you are. Not because of how much melanin your skin produces, but because of your position as a member of the social group “white” within a society that is dominated by people of the same social group. And nobody is erasing your own experiences of class or ethnic or religious or shy-people subjugation, by insisting that those are separate from racism, and that you receive unearned benefits in society simply because you belong to the social group “white”. It’s not a personal attack, DBB – you’re the one who’s both making it too personal, and not taking it personally enough. It’s basic class politics.
Do you get it? If not, I’m afraid I might just be done here. You’ve shown nothing but a complete unwillingness to examine what is being talked about here in your own life, and I don’t think that I can be any clearer about what I’ve written. All I can encourage you to do is step away from it, and think about it some more, not from your position of “those people over at TG’s are crazy”, but of trying to see beyond your own knee-jerk reflex response of “I AM NOT RACIST” to trying to understand things from a position that is vastly different from your own, that you will never be able to fully understand or experience. Try to understand that you are being oppressive when you deny that racism is insitutionalized in our society. And try to just suspend your (dis)belief for a little while and just accept that white society is a racist construct, and you participate in it just as much as anyone.
TFS: I love it. Now I’m racist because my family was almost wiped out in an attempted genocide. And apparently skin color is beside the point now. So being white doesn’t matter if you are defined as ‘not-white’ when it comes to genocide, but when it comes to whether or not you are a racist, being white is all you need to be. How utterly nonsensical. Which is it? Does skin color matter or not?
Tell me, then, what would a racist-free society look like that, by demographics, was 75% white and 14% African-American?
Tell me how you, who label based solely on race, are not a racist. Thus far, by your words, you have only convinced me more and more that you are a racist. Which makes you rather ineffectual if you really want to improve race relations – telling people you know basically nothing about they are racist simply because you know their race isn’t likely to convince anyone of anything except that you are a racist.
TG: Calling someone personally a racist in our society is an insult. It is difficult to carry on a conversation that begins with an insult. Sorry. It is difficult to get past that. Perhaps, as I think someone else suggested, you need different terminology.
I never denied there was racism. I never denied there wasn’t some institutionalized racism in some institutions in our society. To bring back in Atheism into the discussion – in our society, admitting you are an atheist basically means giving up any chance of running for national office. The same is not true when it comes to race. In that sense, the discrimination against atheists is worse than that for race in our society. Could I avoid that by hiding who I am? Sure. But why should I have to? And do you really think, given the mud-machine out there, that an atheist running for public office could actually keep that a secret? So I know that I and my family are completely barred from high office. But, of course, none of that matters because I’m white.
My family grew up poor. But that doesn’t matter because I’m white. Most of my extended family was wiped out in an attempted genocide. But that doesn’t matter because I’m white. Apparently nothing about me, who I am, what I think, what I’ve done, matters, because I’m white.
Don’t you think a better conversation on this topic would start with asking someone the question what racism is? As opposed to just telling them they are a racist, knowing nothing else about them?
Saying I’m not a racist (and I am not, no matter what you may say) does not mean I’m denying there is racism in our society. I never denied it.
And I think the only valid definition of racism is a race-neutral one. Just like the only valid definition of rape is a gender-neutral one. Whether or not an individual is a racist has to be a race-neutral, individual type of question, or else it becomes an ideological tool, and not really a definition.
Ask yourself, if there is no race-neutral definition of racism, and who is a racist person, then it says nothing about the person you apply it to.
For instance, by your defintion, if I were to move to a country that was 100% antoher race (not my own race) then I’d go from being a racist to a non-racist, simply by changing my address to that new country. Even if all I did all day was scream (to anyone who could listen) how all African Americans are the n-word. Even more silly, is that everyone in that society, since they are all 100% another race not my own, would all be instantly transformed into racists, because now they are part of the dominant race in a multi-racial society because I moved there, and presumably, will be at a disadvantage against the dominant race.
That is why I think a new word entirely is needed, because to me and to most people, racism is about an individual’s character, not about their race versus the demographics of the society they live in. I think what you are saying, which I don’t disagree with, is that in any society, you have advantages from being in the dominant demographic group, whatever that may be. That doesn’t make someone a racist. It does give them an advantage, but only over someone not in that demographic group, and that advantage can disappear if you are applying for a position from an employer who isn’t from your demographic group. It also won’t matter as much if the position you seek is highly specialized, and you are one of the few people who can do it. Then economics of supply and demand can override it.
I really don’t know what you would call that if you had to reduce it to one word. But I know it isn’t ‘racist’.
Some people listen, but don’t hear.
Somebody white and VERY patient is going to have to “educate” DBB. The fact is, DBB, you don’t want a racist-free society and you don’t believe in justice for people of color.
I had a ‘debate’ with TG and some other white folks about racism as a mental illness. This conversation has renewed my belief that racism is a collective pathology, that affects all of us differently. Victims of racism have pathological responses to their condition; so to do the beneficiaries of racism.
People of goodwill would seek to learn how racism manifests in them. Some people don’t.
People who classify themselves as white created this world. Those of us who can think and see and hear should do what we can to expose and oppose this racist system and all of its adherents, supporters like DBB. He may be clueless, but he is a racist buffoon.
TG- Thanks for commenting on my response.
I know I may sound like a downer but the reason I say that it’s human nature to abuse power is because no matter where or when you study civilizations (from the first greek societies to the first african societies to asian societies), abuses of power have always been going on.
While I don’t disagree that white civilizations have abused non-white people by implementing systems that disfavor favor them, I worry that we are fooling ourselves into believing that a latino/gay/whatever driven society would be any less inclined to abuse of others. The hatred would just have a different look to it.
PS- As a side note, I myself live in a latin country and have been sent to the back of lines for being a ‘whitie’ or ‘gringo’. In high school here my nickname was ‘bleach’!
Carlos
I personally know where you come from.
Freeslave
I hear your pain. I understand your pain. but I do not feel your pain. I won’t lie to you I understand what you are saying and even agree with a lot of it but I am going to say carrying the pain you carry also has a high price. This pain is most likely earned and justified but it is also eating you up inside remember most revolutions eat their children. Revolutionaries are also like prophets. Never accepted in their own land, driven burning with partisan fire and often lonely. I have been there I have burnt brightly for a different cause and have struggled to bring it under control. The fires now burn low and moderated. It still is sometimes tempting to burn others with the flame of the cause, what cause is unimportant but you know what I mean. Be good to yourself and do not sacrafice yourself to soon for your cause.
I really have to disagree on the point that one has to be white is to be racist. I think it’s more a matter of: I think, therefore I am… a racist.
My mother, a God fearing black woman simply hates Haitians. Don’t ask me why… maybe one stole her dream guy when she was 17 or something…. I dated an asian girl whose asian parents don’t like “niggers” and “spics”, though apparently “kikes” are alright. Many asians are even racist toward themselves, especially light-complected asians toward darker-complected ones. Even I, the rainbow child that I claim to be, am racist. When I moved to Texas I must admit I felt some relief to see what a lot of African Americans (or whatever we’re calling ourselves now) are better off than where I came from and I owe it all to the fact that Mexicans are the niggers of the Southwest.
Point is: everyone, not just whites, need an underclass. We all need to exploit someone to our benefit and to blame someone when we can’t get a job or our homes get devalued. It doesn’t stop with whites. People who claim they are not racist are as believable as the heroin addict who insists she can quit anytime. Racism will go away when our fear/hatred of those unlike us goes away. And I’m not holding my breath for that one.
I think I’m starting to connect to what you guys are getting at. Trying to suspend my reactions & really hear what you are saying is difficult when you use the ‘R’ word, ya know.
But, you are not letting me off the hook, either.
It is true that we live in a White dominated society. Of course I know that. I know all about Civil rights, slavery, etc…I’ve been discriminated against & I’ve been called names because of my skin color. I know about these things & I always thought is was anough for me to understand.
But now I have to ask myself, “Do I try to justify my White privilege by trying to level the playing field?
Does saying, “It’s no different, POC are racist, too.” or just saying, “I’m not a racist”. Invalidate some other deeper truth?
Have I been saying, in a sense, “I know how you feel.” [when I really don't & never can.]?
Is this an excuse so I only have to think about it to a point?
Truth is where it’s at & I’m for anything that helps the human race move forward in that direction.
I’ll be mulling this over.
DBB – obviously no amount of discussion about this will give you cause to examine racism in yourself. You keep trying to compare your own experiences of oppression in other areas (class, religion) with racism, and I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t work like that. Doing what you’re doing erases and makes less serious the experiences of POC, the ones who ACTUALLY experience institutionalized racism. Whether you beleive it does or not, it does.
I’m not going to make up some word for “Racist” when the one we have works just fine, so that folks like you get to feel better about the degree of racism present in yourself, have someone worse to point your finger at and say “they’re the real problem”, so you get to forget and deny and feel more comfortable about the role you play in maintaining racism, so you can be let off the hook and still go about your days clinging to your ideologies. The word we already have fits just fine. The definition of racism POC have advanced, as something that is not individual, but systematic, is much truer than the wormy squirmy definition white supremacists have come up with to include themselves and be able to deflect charges of racism and accuse POC of the same thing they have been accused of, when it’s clear and obvious that there is a massive difference between any kind of prejudice that a white person experiences at the hands of a POC and what POC as a group experience at the heels of white society.
That’s really about all I can say, DBB. Like Max said, someone more patient is going to have to continue this with you. My words are running low, I can’t come up with any new way to try to explain it to you when you aren’t willing to hear it. So, this is the end.
Carlos – hi again!
You said, “I worry that we are fooling ourselves into believing that a latino/gay/whatever driven society would be any less inclined to abuse of others. The hatred would just have a different look to it.”
well, that’s not really what’s being advocated for here. I’m talking about dissolving domination and creating equality rather than replacing the group in power with a different group. You may be right, there might always be an abuse of power if one group is in power – so I say, equality is the only way!
deryl – welcome!
fair enough, I hear what you’re saying. although, this is probably what I would call prejudice or discrimination rather than racism, because it’s not systematic and institutionalized. what you’re talking about it closer to arguing that racism is about individual acts and beliefs, rather than racism being a system of barriers that privilege one group and subjugate another.
I do agree that we need to stop being afraid of one another, of people who look or act of believe differently than we do. But also, we need to stop profiteering from other people’s subjugation.
L>T – I’m not at all surprised that you’re taking this to heart, L>T. Your questions are rigth on the mark. I’m happy for you that you’re simply seeing things in a different light, that’s very good, and honestly, it just might change your life. Let me know how it goes!
TG: Thank you for your persistence in taking this subject on. It ain’t easy for none of us.
I have a friend, LA, and we often talk about the tactics whites use to avoid sitting still and swallowing the castor oil. She calls it the ‘Dance of the Seven Veils.’
They begin by asking the person challenging them on their racism to: 1) change your tone, say it more kindly – then I’ll listen to you; 2) change the word – then I’ll listen to you; 3) everybody’s racist, therefore I don’t need to look at how it manifests in me; 4) its not racism – its capitalism/sexism/atheism; 5) I’ve had it tough, therefore racism can’t exist; 6) I’m not racist, YOU’RE racist! 7) ‘The Ism I suffer is WORSE than racism’; 8 ) If the shoe were on the other foot, non-whites would be just as racist as whites are, therefore its ‘human nature,’ …..Et-muthafuckin-cetera.
Now, TG didn’t begin this conversation slapping folks verbally upside the head. She did challenge white folks to try on the notion that this white-Euro culture is racist to the core – and that the idea that whites can avoid being inculcated with racism/white supremacy is an impossibility. Saying that, is not saying that one cannot become sensitive and aware of this indoctrination. She is not saying that whites are intrinsically racist.
She is saying that ridding oneself of racism begins with the admission that yes, racism is in all of us and white folks have a particular responsibility to face this reality since, this culture provides benefits to white people – benefits stolen from people of color (colonialism) and systematically denied them today (racism/white supremacy/imperialism/globalism).
Its a complex issue obviously – pardon the simplification.
Now, in spite of the fact that TG gently broached this subject, folks came out the gate asking her to do backflips before they’d even consider the possibility that her thesis might be true. Its clearly denial.
And the only antidote to denial is to do the exact opposite of your first inclination which is to, pretty-please- with-a-cherry-on-top, shut the fuck up, listen hard, harder than you’ve ever imagined-with your WHOLE being – and let these ideas seep in. What have you got to lose besides your privilege?
FS – you’re welcome, and thank you for the props, and for standing with me here. I can only imagine the response that you get on your blog, to pretty much every post you write! Fuck! This is the first post of this kind I’ve written, and the response has been overwhelming, some of it really difficult for me, and I know for some of the readers who’ve responded. I knew when I posted it I was in for some dissent, but JC on the cross.
It’s not easy. It’s not at all easy to confront your own racism – but why the fuck should it be, you know? It’s not easy to live oppressed by it, why should it be made more palatable, made into bite-sized morsels that are easier for white people to digest?
“ridding oneself of racism begins with the admission that yes, racism is in all of us and white folks have a particular responsibility to face this reality”
Exactly. This is all I’m saying.
No one promised you a bed of roses, people.
I’m listening, TFS, but I don’t hear much coming from you that is constructive or educational. On the other hand, I CAN hear some of the other posters who are saying much the same thing. What’s the diff? Your obvious disdain for my learning process.
Contrary to what you assert, you’re not making me “feel” as a way to get at my racism–which I’ve already explained I’m aware of–what you’re doing is baiting, attacking, and condemning because I’m not getting it “quickly enough” or “thoroughly enough” to suit you. Instead of provoking thought, you’re provoking defensive mechanisms which make me not WANT to listen to you. How exactly does tearing people down get them to see your point?
Christ on a popsicle stick! If I, as a teacher, treated students like that, they’d never learn anything!
Even though I have “lived and breathed” what I’m teaching, and find it incredibly self-evident, I have to be aware that others have and do not. Yes, I get incredibly frustrated with them at times, and yes, I feel as though I am repeating myself, and oh yes, I’d love to shake them from time to time but it’s more important to me that they get this than I express my personal frustrations.
I cannot allow them to try their hands at something, only to wait to pounce and “slap down” those hands when they fumble something–something I think is self-evident or “easy.” That is not a safe learning environment, and therefore they will learn to just shut up and nod along with me…which is counter-productive to learning. So I continue encouraging the places they’re right while re-directing or coaching in the places they’re mistaken, asking leading questions, or correcting misperceptions in an attitude of encouragement.
So I’m going off-track with your “list” of “denial tactics” that “we” use and say: Regardless of our (yours and mine) respective races or differences of opinion, we are both human beings. We are equals (and don’t give me that “society” crap, I’m talking person-to-person, here, in this forum), and we are both intellegent, thoughtful, truth-seeking adults. I am acting in good faith to come to an understanding of your beliefs, to grant you where we already are in accord and work out where we are not. You have something you can teach me, and I would like to learn.
I’m not asking you to “say it more kindly,” I am telling you that if you want someone to respect and listen to you, then you will yourself respect and listen to them. I am an adult, and will not be spoken to or lectured like I’m a child. You admit you don’t read thoroughly, for example–because you are already assuming you know what I’m going to say and are ready to “jump in” and answer, to slap down what’s wrong. I admit that some of the posters on here are frustrating to me also because I’ve already reached realizations they are still struggling with…but that doesn’t give me the right to put them down. Shit, if I wanted someone to talk to me the way you do, I’d call my mom!
You want me to listen, and all I can say is I’m trying my best. How about you really listening to what I’m “trying” to say, too? yeah, yeah, yeah,
your race has had to listen to mine its whole history yadda yadda. I’m not slighting the idea of institutionalized racism, merely pointing out that we needn’t be our respective histories. In fact, we can’t be, because if we as two human beings are going to engage, we’re going to have to get eye to eye. How else are we going to figure this thing out?
——
I used “me” and “you” in this not because I have a personal problem with you, but rather with the rhetorical methodology. I intend no personal attack; however, it seemed safer to use personal pronouns so as not to speak for anyone else except myself.
Maybe it is “say it nicer” in different words, but what I mean is: if you want to engage me in a way to open my mind, then you’ll have to treat me with the same respect that you want and deserve from me in return.
Sorry, meant to clarify something: I don’t want to be infantilized with this–TG is right that it shouldn’t be made into bite-sized morsels for “poor little old me.” On the other hand, I don’t want to be made out as stupid when I struggle to “get it,” either.
Proeshack,
Maybe you don’t hear much educational or constructive because you’re not ready to hear or learn.
Or, because as a white man, you are programmed to respond by covering your ears. I’m not responsible for your reaction.
Those who want to learn, will, those who don’t will use the excuse of the way I say it to close their ears. That’s your choice. I want to reach people, but I refuse to sugarcoat it. Believe it or not, I’ve done that and mammying actually sucks.
I’m not your teacher and you’re not my student. I’m not educating at all; its actually re-education or deconstruction, which requires tearing down an evil system, an evil construct. That’s a very painful process and it may feel destructive for white people (it likely feels liberating to people oppressed by said evil system). Its necessary, dude. AND its also love, tough love, but love just the same. You’re man enough to deal with it. I wouldn’t do this if I didn’t love humanity.
You may feel its disrespectful; I see it as vitally important. I was reading somewhere (see, I do read) white and human are synonyms; that would make us subhuman. OR, we are human and white people are superhuman (‘The White Man Has A God Complex’). These are both lies. These bubbles must be burst – that whites are superior or that the white man is God.
You’re assuming that I disrespect you; actually, I respect the denial in white folks tremendously. That’s what I’m seeking to attack. If you’re not in denial, there should be no need to get hung up in the approach. After all, racism/white supremacy is killing generations of black people, Native Americans, Africans, Iraqis. It is destroying the humanity of white people.
If you allow my tone or word choice to prevent you from dealing with your complicity in a monstrous system – I seriously doubt you wanted to confront this shit in the first place.
Alright, back again. Hope this thread hasn’t been abandoned.
TG and FS, before I start again, let me preface this by saying that I really doubt we disagree much. However, I’m still really puzzled by your definitions here, and I want you to clarify a few things, if you don’t mind.
As far as I can tell, the two of you are defining being racist as “being the beneficiary of a system of dominance and oppression.” And if I granted that definition, I’d probably tentatively agree that all whites are racists, though I can probably come up with some philosopher’s examples where it isn’t the case. Anyhow, the issue I can see is that there’s a whole bunch of different systems of dominance and oppression based on different qualities that differ depending on your scope. And it’s also definitely the case that people oppressed within the United States benefit from the oppression of peoples outside the United States. So why aren’t blacks within the US racist WRT, say, the peasant Chinese who manufacture goods they consume? Or latin-american migrant farmworkers who pick the food they eat? They do benefit from the same system white males do, they just get less benefit. It seems like a difference in degree rather than kind. Freeslave, it seemed like you were addressing this by mentioning the “internal colony.” And again, I’m not disagreeing that within the US, white’s on top, and I’m not saying that there aren’t huge race and class issues that need to be addressed. I’m just asking why, when people of color within the US benefit materially from a global system of oppression relative to the people outside the US, they aren’t all racist too, by the definition above. Is it their fault that they benefit by their location? No, but it’s not my fault I was born into this system either.
Also, as a corollary, if we extended this argument into other areas, am I sexist for benefiting from a patriarchy? Homophobic for being straight? Why not?
The big issue I see is that I think you’re trying to describe a very big and important phenomenon with terminology that doesn’t fit the concept. TG, you said earlier in response to DBB’s comment, “I’m not going to make up some word for ‘Racist’ when the one we have works just fine.” However, I think exactly the issue is that the word ‘racist’ doesn’t work fine in this context. It’s a radical redefinition from common usage, and using it opens all sorts of issues because the word racist, as commonly understood, has moral force. You shouldn’t act surprised and condescending when people react poorly to being told that they have an inescapable moral defect by virtue of their race. If that’s not what you intended to communicate, I think that’s what people are hearing. And if that is what you intended to communicate, I have to admit I’m puzzled.
TG, I’m not saying don’t rock the boat, but going into a discussion saying you’ve already made up your mind and occusing commenters who disagree with what you admitted is a radical opinion of being bigots isn’t exactly a fantastic rhetorical style. My counterargument isn’t “don’t rock the boat”, it’s “this argument has a bunch of consequences I find a little hard to swallow,” and the fact that it’s hard to swallow doesn’t indicate to me that it’s correct. Rock the boat as much as you want, but don’t be surprised when I ask why you’re doing it. You say “Supporting, participating in, benefitting from, maintaining racism, well, that’s racism. Seems simple enough for me.” How is this simple? In the first four, racism is shorthand for “policies that have disproportionate ill effects on certain racial minorities,” but then it seems to switch to a statement about the attitudes of a subject, which doesn’t follow. Furthermore, it doesn’t apply just to white people, but to anyone who “supports”, “benefits from”, or “maintains” a racist system. It simply doesn’t seem defensible to me to suggest that all white people do those things. What am I missing here? This subject’s been bothering me all weekend, and I’m wondering where you think I’m slipping up in my reasoning.
Like Tim I’ve been thinking about this subject alot.
I’ve enjoyed it & learned alot & thanks freeslave & thinking girl for an awesome post.
This is what I realized:
The questions that I have proposed to myself concerning racism have to be answered without defense. (I know this is what you’ve been saying all along, I just had to figure it out)
What I think is that most people do ask themselves these important questions & answer them really thinking they are at the truth within themselves.
I am a strong secular humanist in my thinking, I had not realized before this post & this subject that I might use my humanist philosophy as a shield sometimes to avoid certain truths.
I tried to use that position to defend myself. freeslave said something about sugar-coating & I realized that was what I was doing. In a way you could say it was my last line of defense
Now I realize how crucial to let all your defenses go to get to the truth. Get past that first then answer the questions. That’s when you can see the truth objectively(?)!
You guys pushed me to be absolutely positive that I was as openminded & honest as possible concerning my racism. (Getting past your definition of the word was tough, but I decided I had to let my problem with it go to keep going)
I was really kinda suprised at myself at all the defenses I could bring up. I went into this not thinking I had any, really.
I’ll stop now, but I’m sure you get what I’m trying to say.
One more thing. In the interim my daughter had a baby, & Since I was going to participate in the birth I thought I would use the opprotunity to examine the perspective as an agnostic secular humanist, & blog about it.
As I was looking at the baby, I thought, I don’t want this lovely inno0cent baby to grow up as a racist. I realized that now I could pass on what I’ve learned here.
TFS:
You apparently didn’t read the initial post, the one in which I accepted fully my personal part in racism, sketched some things I’d done combat it within myself, and also some ways I (hope I) have and contributed to its demise. (Granted, I also elucidated some ongoing questions I had, but that was more “thinking out loud” than anything.) I guess you don’t want to hear that; you’d rather jump to assume that I’m in “denial” and blocking up my ears and lalalala-ing you away.
For one thing, I know you didn’t read my post because I said outright that as a teacher I didn’t want to fall victim to the “nice white lady” syndrome, and yet you continue to address me as a white man, and “dude,” and tell me I’m man enough to take what you’re dealing.
This is exactly what I mean about basic HUMAN respect for the person you are discussing, debating, educating, or whathaveyou. Do you want me to go feminist on your ass and accuse you of not listening to me just cause I’m a woman, and so of course you rehashing your male discourse is more important than you listening to my female one? No, of course not, and I don’t think that’s true–see, I respect you enough to give you the benefit of the doubt.
So try again to hear me. The deconstruction is done. I’m glad you read, but I didn’t write and I don’t buy into white=humanity/God, any more than I buy into man=humanity/God, so don’t use that shit against me. I am BY NO MEANS asserting that I’ve exorcised racism; I know that ideology is like the authority always already hailing me, and sometimes I do stop and turn my head. But I am self-aware enough to know it’s happening, and self-motivated enough to struggle against it every day. I know I walk around with that fishbowl on my shoulders, I know it colors my perceptions and responses, and to my best extent I try to compensate for that. So what are you trying to deconstruct in me? Better yet, what’s hailing you–what’s your fishbowl? Could it be that you don’t have anything in your rhetorical bag other than tear-downs and cynicism? Neither is helpful in the long-term, because someone who’s past the point you seem to assume all white people are at is asking you for more–more insight, more dialogue, more what? suggestions or further help from a different perspective, in order to grow more, do more, learn more, and you can’t give it.
Sir, I’m not using your rhetoric as an excuse not to hear you; I’m calling you on the fact that you are Johnny One Note. You’re not my teacher, and yet…you’re trying to educate people. When I ask for constructive dialogue, you can’t provide it, but rather repeat the same old tired same old. How do you explain that?
And if you tell me once more that I’m just in denial that I’m racist and quote some non-sequitor bullshit at me that you’ve read, I’m done.
—————————————-
I appreciated Long Haired Hippie’s point regarding Buddhast’s learning to look within without judgement, but not tolerate anything that shouldn’t be there. It’s a great corallary with physical healing; you don’t say someone is bad for having cancer, you simply help them heal it.
I had been exposed to that thinking many many moons ago. Later, when I first started to deal with some of these issues (embarrassingly enough, not until grad school), racism for me didn’t have the same sting as it did (and apparently does) for others. It was not completely pain-free, but I was able to say, “oh, I see your point” much sooner than if I’d spent time condemning myself and feeling personally distraught over something that I was doing out of ignorance and socialization. I had colleagues who still do what they do out of “white guilt,” and I see that as just another racist reaction.
Tim asked: “So why aren’t blacks within the US racist WRT, say, the peasant Chinese who manufacture goods they consume?”
Blacks aren’t racist because we don’t control the systems of dominance in this culture. ANY. White people have monopoly power of all areas of people activity – economics, war, education, entertainment, labor, etc. The control these areas for their benefit. Any trickle down is inconsequential.
The levers of power are in exclusively white hands. Black people can benefit from racism/imperialism/globalism, however, we don’t run shit. We are an exploited class within the belly of the beast. While there are some black people in this society with financial means, we are a subclass in this society. And our “benefitting” is, A) an unintended consequence of a quasi free-slave capitalistic society or B) a propaganda ploy designed to trick black people into thinking this system works so we won’t tear it up.
Proseshack,
Sounded like a white man to me…sorry girlfriend.
BTW: How come other white people here get what I’m saying and you don’t?
And one more thing, Lady Proseshack:
If I weren’t Johnny One Note – how would you want me to help you grow?
TFS:
GAH! GAH! GAAAAH!
Let me try again. Maybe in caps?
I GET WHAT YOU’RE SAYING!!!!!!!!
Wait, to be fair: what is it that you think I don’t get?
I hear you say: white people are racist. And I say: yes, I know that I am.
I hear you say: it’s hard for them to confront. And I say: amen; and you can never know how hard, since you’re unable to walk the proverbial mile in my shoes.
I hear you say: not only are you racist, but so is the system. And I say: amen, but I will never know it completely, not being able to walk that proverbial mile in YOUR shoes.
And you say: white people need to listen! And I say, I’m listening…say something. Say something that begins to move us forward from this point. That begins to be constructive.
You ask what I’d like…maybe what I’d like you to do is stop beating the “you’re a racist” theme that I’ve already fessed up to and address the conundrums in my original post. Help me ferret out what is residual racism from what isn’t. I promise that I am not a hostile audience in this, so there is no need to treat me as such.
A useful conversation would be for you to share with me your thoughts on how a white person who wants to help subvert the system can best do it. I.E.: with my students, as I mentioned…while I want them (both white and PoC) to recognize that the power structure is fucked up, I also want them to have access to power. From a thoughtful, involved PoC’s point of view (you), how best are young PoC served–by someone acting as a guide to help them negotiate “the system?” There’s such a fine line between teaching them the way through and colonizing: how do I, esp as a white woman, impress on them that they should learn to speak and write “proper English” without de-valuing thier home languages? How do I deal with the crying young woman in my office just today, who tells me her peers back home accuse her of “selling out” and “acting white” because she’s 1) in college and 2) determined to make something of her life? (She’s going into law, btw, and will make a damn fine advocate.)
I’ve read–and make my student/athletes esp. read–Gates, who talks about the vastly higher numbers of black professionals (dentists, doctors, lawyers, cpa’s) than professional athletes. Gates also says, “If we practiced calculus like we practiced ball, we’d be running MIT by now.” Who else can I turn these young minds to? Who should I be trying to wrap MY mind around?
Let’s get one thing straight: what I’m NOT asking you to do is to speak “on behalf of your race” or as any type of representational PoC. (That’s DUH racist.) I am just thinking that I’ve come across another passionate soul who has ideas he’d be able to share if he’s willing. Because I understand my solopcism, I have always asked for input from various sources: in grad school, where I was fortunate enough to have some profs who encouraged self-awareness; on the web, black feminist and professional blogs; amongst my peers in academia; parents of my students. I ask PoC. I ask enlightened white folks. I question myself constantly. See, I understand that I can never know what it means to be marginalized because of race, and the only way I can have any clue about what to do is to…ASK. ASK. And then ASK some more.
I don’t know. I admit I don’t know. So when I do ask questions, I really don’t want to waste my and the other person’s time with re-deconstruction (is that even a word? lol). Nor am I preuptiously or imperiously demanding answers. I want to have a conversation to try to understand someone else’s pov. But I also want to have it in a mutually respectful manner that somehow moves BOTH of us forward.
Part of my frustration, honestly, is that I’ve had these discussions many many times, in classes and with others. Too often they end with/at the same point: men are sexist, whites are racist, etc. Some ppl get it and some don’t. Great. Ok. But now what? What do we do? Where can we go? How do we overcome that? And when I say Johnny One Note, I am simply meaning that at some point, we have to move on from there to something more, and I bet you have something to contribute to that conversation if you’d move along the scale. It does me or anyone else no good at all to leave them stranded at the point of realization with nowhere to go from there.
The only comparison I have is my church raising. As a child and young person, I went to a church where they preached some really amazing sermons–real hellfire and brimstone stuff. You damn sure knew you were the most abject of sinners by the time the good rev got done with you, so rather than be bound for hell, you took your butt on up to the front and confessed and repented and…then what? Yes, you were a sinner; yes, you’d confessed and repented and asked Jesus in, but then what? There was never anything beyond that…no teaching for growth, no way to establish a relationship with Christ other than to save you from being a sinner. No clue at all how to go on from that point to try and have a different experience. (Thankfully, I found it a little later on my own.) That’s how I sometimes feel in discussions such as this, and why the frustration occasionally manifests itself.
Anyway, I have to apologize for the length of this post. We’re all busy people, and I’m taking too much of your time. I do appreciate your willingness to continue to engage with me in this.
Oh! I’m not sure if I take it as a compliment that I sound like a white man, but at least you didn’t think I write “like a girl…”
I’ve been reading this conversation from the beginning and I’ve wanted to jump in a few times but didn’t know exactly where to start, so I hope it’s not too late to throw my two cents in. Congratulations, Thinking Girl, on the writing the most provocative post to cross my path in quite a while. You haven’t exactly swayed me, but you definitely got me thinking.
Like many others, my problem lies with the language. And no, it’s not because it makes me uncomfortable (not that it doesn’t) and it’s not that I want you to sugarcoat anything. I simply feel that what you are describing does not fit the definition of racism. But more than simply arguing over what the dictionary says, I have a problem with using the same word to describe both violent, prejudiced acts, and simply existing as a white person. There is a huge difference between being born into a society where the color of your skin potentially gives you more power than others, and the KKK, Jim Crow laws, Nazis, racial gang violence, Japanese internment camps, etc. The word racism is typically associated with the latter. If you want to redefine the word for your own purposes, I think you need to clarify and redefine a few others and maybe even make up a couple new ones. The institutionalized racism you are talking about that typically gives whites more power is very different from physical and verbal acts of hatred toward others, and to equate the two is not very accurate in my opinion. I would venture to say that is where a lot of people’s discomfort comes from.
Moving on to what Tim said about the definition you are suggesting, I have to agree that if we go by your rules, then it is not just whites, but all of Western civilization that benefits from racism. TFS countered with: “Blacks aren’t racist because we don’t control the systems of dominance in this culture.” Well the same can be said for the vast majority of white people. The people who are in control are undoubtedly white, but the rest of the peasant masses don’t control shit. That’s not to say white privilege does not exist, but the majority of white folks having actual control? I’m not quite sure about that. They have about as much control over who their country exploits as any other race. If a white person and a black person each buy a shirt made by some starving Malaysian kid, does that make the white person racist but not the black person? This is assuming that each one of them has the same amount of control over what they buy. Please clarify this if I’m misinterpreting what you’ve said, but it seems to me that if you take your definition further than simply a tool to denounce white people, it can be applied to quite a bit more.
Now, I have to say that the MVP of this thread is definitely Prosehack. Word up on everything you said about simple human respect when engaging in conversation, and especially in conversations where people are actually trying to learn. Freeslave, you seem to love to remind people that they are adults and should be able to handle this topic. Seeing how you are, yourself, presumably an adult, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that you use the same decency when engaging in conversation that the other adults use. There’s a difference between writing provocatively in an attempt to get people to “feel” you, and being downright disrespectful. You’ve blurred the line between the two beyond recognition. Like Prosehack said, I’d really like to see what else you have to contribute. My question throughout this entire thread has been “what the fuck do I DO?” If I can’t not benefit from a racist system, and you’re calling that being a racist, where do I go from here? Any suggestions, ANYTHING, other than some condescending, stupid white devil bullshit would be much appreciated.
Proseshack: Check out George Jackson (Soledad Brother), Angela Davis, Steve Biko (I Write What I Like; South African apartheid but relates), Marcus Garvey, Huey P. Newton (Revolutionary Suicide), Franz Fanon, Marimba Ani (Yurugu – a classic analysis of European culture. Out of print but a motivated person can find it), ‘The Black Panther Party Reconsidered’. If you feel really excited, check out “The Isis Papers” by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing.
I’ll try to get back to this over the weekend, possibly with another post. Thanks to everyone for your comments.
Thanks TFS. I had wanted to add something…but I have a dissertation defense tomorrow to prepare for (NOT MINE, thank God).
The short version is–have you ever read bell hooks, particularly “Teaching to Transgress”? I wondered if you had any thoughts on that or on Paulo Freire, whose theories she’s riffing from.
I’ve hit Davis, and a smattering of Garvey. I’ve also found (because I worked with slave narratives some) that Douglass’ other writings are amazingly revolutionary. For example, I didn’t know that Douglass was a hair’s breadth away from being with John Brown at Harper’s Ferry, and in fact had to flee the country afterward to avoid arrest!
I also loved the whole “behind the veil/masking” tropes of the Harlem renaissance witers–and some writers today. Even as a lesbian, I could never fully understand having to hide my true self from EVERY person, but that helped me feel a little of the isolation. When you can look at your child sleeping and feel sorrow rather than joy, then there is something seriously wrong with the world.
And Kayassett: I’m no one’s hero. Really. You’re at a point I was once at–bargaining, doubting, hypotheticals–and if someone hadn’t kept after me about it all, I’d have let it slide back into the comfortable realm of “oh well.” I know TFS’s methodology, as it’s an integral part of most movements. He’s an agitator, and in many ways, he’s SUPPOSED to sound the one note, over and over, until it’s heard (perhaps he should change his name to Gabriel.) However, for ME (a pronoun I was careful to use), I wanted to see if there was something more, something useful to move forward with.
TFS, I fully intend to track down and read some of your suggestions: you gonna be around to hash them over with me? A bit of sparring has given me a great deal of respect for your tenacity and passion. I’ve also gotten some great feedback from one of the feminist blogs re: feminism and WoC. I mean I know feminism can be white-middle-class-centric, but I’m interested in how we can move beyond that.
Thinking Girl, thank you, for both your posts and your patience. I know I may have been a royal pain in your ass, although I hope not too much so. I also hope it’s ok if I stick around? I like the synergy here.
Proseshack: Digression – I think Gates is a total Uncle Tom.
We don’t ever move beyond this, we only move through and, as I think you know, its often a circular process of doubling back over stuff one thinks they were done with. One of the reasons I continue to have these conversations is that racism is not what I thought it was. Every time I think I’ve got it figured out, it gets deeper.
You have to forgive my skepticism when white people tell me they’ve figured racism out, or gotten beyond certain points (for the above stated reason) No disrespect, its just my experience.
This can’t be solved like a math problem. (I’m not saying this to you specifically so much as re-stating it for clarity) I do what I do the way I do it, again because its about breaking shit and people’s lies down in order to have a real conversation. One of my heroes said: “much of what I say might sound like bitterness, but its the truth; much of what I say might sound like its stirring up trouble, but its the truth; much of what I say might sound like hate, but its the truth.”
I’m not trying to do this perfectly, to appeal to everybody, to reach everybody, to say it the way everybody here wants to be spoonfed it. I’m only trying to connect with those wise enough, strong enough, real enough to go deeper. Go deeper than “what it sounds like” or my emotion, to “what it’s saying.”
Now, Kayassett ain’t ready cuz his wriggling on the line, but I think TG had him in mind when she said:
“The definition of racism POC have advanced, as something that is not (only) individual, but systematic, is much truer than the wormy squirmy definition white supremacists have come up with to include themselves and be able to deflect charges of racism and accuse POC of the same thing they have been accused of, when it’s clear and obvious that there is a massive difference between any kind of prejudice that a white person experiences at the hands of a POC and what POC as a group experience at the heels of white society.”
Bam!
Proseshack: Forgot one – Conquest by Andrea Smith. Must fucking read!
TFS: Do you mean Gates the scholar or Gates the person, because there’s clearly a distinction. I know he has some strong thoughts on the way black students are assimilated through the educational system…and that one article does certainly generate some discussion in class, esp among my student/athletes.
Also, if it wasn’t for him, an entire vital part of lit would still be “lost” to us–the slave narratives that he has had such a huge part in preserving. Not only that, but his spearheading the scholarship that demanded, finally, that those narratives be moved from the fringes into the realm of “scholarly literature” where they belong. Those narratives truly represent the discovery of voice for American blacks, the first real American literature, and the genesis for the energy that’s represented in American lit by PoC through the HRenaissance and even today. I had the privilege of working with them, and was astounded and humbled by them.
So for me, PROF Gates is due some gratitude. Now, “Skippy” Gates, the ideagogue and academic gamesman–him I try to avoid.
I love this part of your post: We don’t ever move beyond this, we only move through and, as I think you know, its often a circular process of doubling back over stuff one thinks they were done with. One of the reasons I continue to have these conversations is that racism is not what I thought it was. Every time I think I’ve got it figured out, it gets deeper.
I understand your scepticism; if you haven’t “got it,” then why would someone who doesn’t live and breathe it “get it?” I’m going to have to rethink my phrasing, certainly: perhaps it would be better to say I recognize that I’m in the fishbowl of racism that will distort what/how I see. I don’t ever know to what extent it’s distorting things (since I can’t get outside of it), so the best I can do is realize the distortions are there. (That’s circular…but do you see what I mean?) Of COURSE there are times when I respond based on my racist perceptions, and it may take a while for that to register…or sometimes it takes someone else to point it out…or I’m sure there are times when I don’t get it at all…
Maybe the best I can do is to realize I won’t always do the best I can.
One thing I’ve been mulling over is Kayassette’s question about the two folks buying the malasian shirt, and why the white one is racist while the other is not. It’s that white folk have set up the system that exploits the malasian, and that system was designed to benefit the white folk. Now, if a non-white person happens to benefit, well, ok–but that’s entirely accidental, a by-product of white domination. In other words: sure black folks shop at Wal-mart, too, but the economic system (and, many would argue, capitalism as a whole) is designed to benefit the white shoppers. I heard the phrase once, “scraps from the master’s table,” used in describing this phemonenon, although I’m sorry I don’t recall the context.
Isn’t it human nature, though, to try and make others as culpable as we? I mean, from the time God said, “Adam, what have you done?” and the guy said, “IT WAS EVE, IT WAS EVE,” and the she said, “IT WAS THE SNAKE, IT WAS THE SNAKE!”
It’s a similar thing to people we’d generally admire, except they held slaves. We do all kinds of convolutions to excuse the inexcusable. If we’ll go to such lengths to excuse others whom we esteem, how much further are we willing to go to excuse ourselves?
Proseshack: One book that really hipped me to Gates, and I’m not bullshitting (drumroll please…) “The American Directory of Certified Uncle Toms,” Richard Laurence. I can’t remember all the details, but they are appalling.
I’ll have to check out Gates the scholar. I saw one of his documentaries on PBS…Tomish, condescending to black people, handpicked knee-grow type.
OK, I think I can handle some of these comments now, I have a little bit of time and have been thinking on it.
Prosehack – I can see what you’re saying, about provoking defense mechanisms rather than respecting people’s learning processes. I think this is a problem with anti-oppression theory, because those of us who are advocating these ideas are doing so for a reason – to affect change. And change requires, to some degree, that people who are in positions of privilege join the movement to eliminate oppression. So at some point, there has to be some coming together, and that means there has to be an effective means of communicating ideas that will not be alienating to those who are the targets.
However, this does make me uncomfortable, because in a way, it is just a restatement of power relations. It’s not that different from saying stuff like “I don’t care for your tone so I can’t hear what you’re saying” or “you need a new word to describe what you’re talking about, cause it doesn’t describe me” or any of the other excuses white folks use to avoid dealing with their racist bullshit. So while I have some sympathy for trying to package anti-racism theory in a way that will be appealing to those it is trying to reach, at the same time, it smells of compromise to me, and I think POC have compromised enough.
What do you think about this? I mean, I feel like I’m trying to deal with this type of problem on another thread with regards to male privilege, and it’s so frustrating to me because I don’t want to compromise on feminist goals in order to make feminism more palatable, marketable, whatever, to men so that they’ll want to play nice and share. You know? I feel the same way about anti-racism work. It feels like giving an inch will really mean a mile. It feels like not backing down is the better way.
I have to agree with FS a bit here, and say that if you don’t feel that what he or I are saying here apply to you because you have worked through your racism, then you won’t be bothered by the style of delivery. Everytime I feel like I want to say, “wait, I’m not like that” I have to remind myself that wait, oh yes I am. Like I can escape this shit? It’s my whole life, my whole white world. How exactly can I escape living in my own skin? You know?
And, I think you do know. I understand that you’re looking for more than this, more than the first step of recognizing your own white racism. I hope FS’s suggestions help you out. But, there’s something to be said for repeating something over and over until it sinks in – especially if it still needs to be said.
more later… I think…
Tim – I think someone answered your query a little bit further up the thread, but I wanted to address it as well.
First, no, I am not defining “racist” as benefitting from a system of domination. I’m defining “white racist” as participating in and benefitting from a system of domination that privileges whites and subjugates everyone else. Racism is deep; its effects are felt by people of all races, whether it is internalized or expressed outward to other people subjugated by white racism. Furthermore, I am defining “racism” as a system of institutional barriers to equality that unjustly subjugate POC while privileging whites. Creating and controlling such a system requires power – power that POC simply don’t have in our society. Which is why the POC in the US who benefit from the economic subjugation of the developing world are not participating in racism – because they didn’t have a hand in controlling and creating the system in the first place. As Prosehack here said, these benefits to POC are like a byproduct.
And yes, you are sexist for benefitting from patriarchy, and (not homophobic) heterosexist for benefitting from straight privilege.
As for the “redefinition” that everyone seems so upset about, look, here’s the thing. The term “racism” has been defined by white people. I’m saying, the POC I have engaged with and listened to and read don’t experience racism that way. And so, I’m gonna go with their definition of racism. Why should I take the definition of racism white folks have provided at face value, as objective, as free from their intentions, free from their power relations and oppressions? Why should I do that, when what I see and hear when I talk with and listen to POC about this is that white people’s definition of racism hurts POC more with its “colourblindness”? The problem with accepting the “common usage” definition of “Racism/Racist” is that you assume some kind of objectivity, some kind of “truth” about the word beyond the meaning that those who have the power to name have given it? Naming and defining is not free from relations of power. And I refuse to accept that those who have the power get to decide the definition, to suit their own purposes of minimizing and wriggling out of the consequences of what they have done and continue to do.
So if my argument has consequences that are hard for you to swallow, don’t automatically think that is reason enough to reject my argument. Just because something is hard for you to swallow, as a white person with white privilege attached to your brain like a parasite, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It means you need to consider very carefully why you find this so hard to swallow.
L>T – rock it baby!
Sounds like you’re getting somewhere with all this, good for you Tart. Letting your defenses go is exactly the point – and examining why those defenses are there, and what they are protecting. Good job, keep going, keep going.
And, as I already said on your blog, congrats on the new grandkid! I’m sure you’ll love the stuffing out of the little cutie-pie!
Prosehack – so where do we go from here?
For me it comes down to three options: 1. separatism, segregation, voluntary, by POC, for POC to gain solidarity and do things their own way, for themselves by themselves. For the people by the people. 2. integration into the dominant system, learning to play by their rules, learning to speak as they speak, get on their wavelength, then trying to make a difference from inside the system once you’ve fought your way in. 3. some combination of the two. I prefer the third option by far. I think there has got to be some solidarity building, some independence from the dominant system – but also, a great deal of learning the system from the inside and doing what can be done to change it from that position rather than only pressuring it from without.
I guess that’s what I would say about your students. It’s not selling out to learn to speak the white man’s language. It’s being smart, educating yourself. If you like, it’s like learning another language, another culture – you don’t have to give up your own, but you need to be able to get inside the other one enough to learn what you need in order to get along and ultimately, in order to break it down.
Kyassett – glad the post got you thinking. This is the same kind of paradigm-shifting I encouraged you to do in regards to male privilege.
read what I said above to Tim regarding the “redefinition” business everyone seems so upset about.
I don’t think it’s a difference in kind between the violent acts of hatred the KKK is guilty of and the system of privilege whites benefit from. It’s a difference of degrees. So one word fits all.
Also, don’t confuse this argument with saying that all whites have ultimate power. As we’ve addressed already, there are lots of different kinds of oppression, and they intersect in each of us. So while white folks benefit from race privilege, they may be oppressed by patriarchy, or class oppression, or heterosexism. Just because there are more whites who don’t control the global economy than who do, doesn’t mean that racism isn’t involved. numbers don’t mean shit. (which is why I don’t use the terminology of “majority/minority”.)
As for the rest of your comment, read what Prosehack said back to you, and don’t hide behind her. You haven’t done the work she has done to get to a place where she recognizes her white racism and privilege. You can’t DO anything about racism until you deal with your racist shit first. and you’re not there yet. And stop coming down on Freeslave, he’s been genius here, and while his words may sting, they don’t come from disrespect at all.
Prosehack and Freeslave – thanks to you both for being here, and for finding a way to engage beyond the basics of this post. Yay! Dialogue! Resources!
FS said, “We don’t ever move beyond this, we only move through and, as I think you know, its often a circular process of doubling back over stuff one thinks they were done with.”
beautiful!
[...] in language – the “racism” edition Jump to Comments I wrote recently about white racism, and the post stirred up a lot of stuff for a lot of people. One of the things that kept coming up [...]
Thanks TG, and one thing ppl love/hate about me is to see both sides of something…it’s either wishy-washy or open-mindedness depending on your point of view. “Yes, but…” was my fave response as a child, and continues to be today.
Oh first, I wanted to say, at the risk of making one -ism sound like another…Your comment on the options is one posed in many LGBT rights’ discussions. On the one hand, you have the ppl who want to say homosexuals are “like everyone else,” but at the same time, there are still the exclusionists and seperatists.
Yes but…Regarding the whole “tone” thing: it applies to feminism, LGBT, and other things too. At the same time I can appreciate the place of the agitators (and have even played one myself at times) in movements (where would AIDS activism be without ACT UP, or indiginous activism without Wounded Knee), (yes, but…) it personally galls me to be spoken to that way, a point I tried to make over and over. It’s not you, per se, it’s me. And although to me, it doesn’t have anything to do with the power structure, I understand how it could come across with FS, as a white person to a non-white: “how dare you talk to me that way?!?” Not to speak for FS, but the fact that we did continue to engage and we still managed to disagree without losing civility I think points to the fact that we both understood the other was not coming from a place of bad faith.
I think my reaction to my raising, my religious beliefs, and my training as an educator have aligned into someone who believes not in sugarcoating anything, but to speak the truth in love, and always be ready to give an answer when the person says, “yes, I see my ignorance; now help me overcome it.” (Yes but…) if I were to be completely honest, I certainly am a person who does not like to be made uncomfortable either. And being called a racist, in spite of everything I do to combat that, simply points out a fact of life I DON’T LIKE. So of course I want it sugarcoated–in spite of me saying otherwise.
As I said, were it NOT for the person on the soapbox, the proverbial bra-burner, chain-oneself-to the fence, voice in the wilderness, many causes would and could not have gotten started. (Yes, but…) It can’t end there. It’s like my example of the person aware of his or her “sinner” status but not given the tools to grow into a mature follower of Christ. If nothing else, that ignorance leads to the need for repeated repentance–and in the same way, not equpping people with ways to work through (excuse that term, I mean “work with”) their blind spots will lead to people lapsing back into the comfort of ignorance and needing to be called out of it over and over.
I had the same problem with theory, about how our ideology is always hailing us–and it made me so angry to think that my horrible socialization could never, ever, be truly overcome.
Have I driven you completely crazy yet?
Oh, and I wondered if you saw this newstory.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/02/nracism102.xml
I know in my state, sexual harrassment can be charged the same way, i.e. if someone is an uncomfortable witness to the harassment…
TG, excellent summation I think of all points. You said:
“And I refuse to accept that those who have the power get to decide the definition, to suit their own purposes of minimizing and wriggling out of the consequences of what they have done and continue to do.”
Thank you. Should the criminal decide what is a crime? Should Bush be able to decide what is terror? Puhleaze?!
Proseshack, while I’m sympathetic to the need for whites to be assisted in their coming to grips with racism, but be aware that some POC’s have experienced white people who we’ve given insights to around racism, who believe that we should continue to tutor them. Its an entitlement mentality that springs from the racism that started off the conversation in the first place.
I’ll help, but whites have to take the lead in their own education and be aware of their tendency to take a, “teach me” posture with POC. It is white folks’ responsibility to educate themselves, to use their eyes and observe. Use what we say in conversations like these as a jumping off point to self exploration and engagement – emotionally, intellectually, spiritually – with the idea and reality of race.
I agree FS, there should never be a learned helplessness on the part of Whites, but I have always and will always be one who values “talking it over” with someone. And it’s especially valuable if that person doesn’t think exactly as I do, or comes from a different place; in other words, I will ask people around me for input on many things, and those things find their way into my eventual thinking. I have a good friend who once said, “the furniture in my mind is easily rearranged.” She didn’t mean she didn’t know what she believed, but that she was open to new ways of seeing things.
The important thing is that it’s only valuable IF IT IS DISCOURSE: if it’s a give and take, free conversation, and if both sides walk away somewhat changed. Otherwise, it’s just a lecture or as you so aptly put it, a tutoring session. Too many times, it does become someone being lazy, sitting back and saying, “well tell me what to think.” We can’t help it; we’re trained in schools and inclined by comfort levels to be that way…it’s another socialization we have to resist, in other words. And it’s much harder to look someone in the eyes and say, “I’m listening,” and mean it.
I see that in some of my students, that intellectual lack of integrity, and it frustrates me no end; still, they’re not asking me to speak as a representative for my race, so I can only imagine (insert tip of iceburg analogy here) how PoC feel being asked/expected to do the same over and over. But then there are the students who really listen, who respond in such a way to show they’ve really taken in what’s been said, and who often teach me in the process.
[...] hit me the strongest about these two posts wasn’t the comments that objected to the notion that to be white is to harbor a certain amount of racism or that folks of color feel the need to make it clear that we don’t mean you, our white [...]
For White People Only: From Yolanda at (http://www.genderracepower.com/?p=228)
1. You can be a good, decent, loving, caring person and be a white male supremacist.
2. You can be a hard-working, dedicated, self-sacrificing person and still have unearned privilege.
3. White male supremacy is a system of power, not a moral failing or an individual flaw.
4. Having a spouse of color and/or children of color does not make a person antiracist.
5. Working with, helping out, donating money to, or otherwise providing resources and services to people of color does not make a person antiracist.
6. Being a fan of, an expert on, or a scholar of Native American literature, Eastern religions, manga, Afro-Asian languages, jazz, reggae, anime, Bollywood cinema, hip-hop, or national liberation movements does not make a person antiracist.
7. Being a woman, lesbian, gay, transgendered, or poor DOES NOT negate one’s white and/or male privilege.
8. Even if most men are not rapists, 99% of rapes are committed by biological men. This is a political reality.
9. All human beings are equal. Men and women are not equal.
10. All human beings are equal. White people and people of color are not equal.
11. All human beings are equal. The rich and the poor are not equal.
12. One does not need to be a white person to be a white supremacist.
13. One does not need to be a man to be a misogynist.
14. One can be both antiracist and white supremacist (Example: yours truly).
15. One can be both feminist and misogynist (Example: yours truly).
16. Critique of privileged and/or oppressive behavior is not a personal attack.
17. Resistance to oppressive bevavior is not a personal attack.
And most important:
No matter how long you have lived, what you’ve experienced, what work you have done, you will never outgrow the need to change.
Prosehack – thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen that story, very interesting! I could get behind that for sure.
Yes, I know, the separationist thing. I was actually thinking of the women’s health movement when I wrote that comment, the big FUCKYOU the WHM gave to the medical establishment at the time that was telling the world so little, and so little that was true, about women’s bodies, sexualities, sexual and reproductive organs, orgasms, etc. by just getting out there and doing their own inspections of their bodies and their own sharing of experiences in order to subvert that whole epistemology of “expert” knowledge/ignorance. I have a very soft spot for separationism, because I understand how frustrating society can be when the experiences/knowledges of some groups are privileged as “truth” while others are ignored.
I understand your frustration with theory; we so seldom see it in practice in our real lives when we spend so much time in academia.
Sage wrote recently about mindsets… that some folks think that things are set, that they are what they are and can’t be changed or evolve, while others think in terms of growth, that things are what they are for now. I thought that was interesting to bring up in terms of racism. I think it can also be linked to separationist movements, which is interesting. I think that these movements can start from a place of thinking that things are set, they are what they are, but that eventually, the act of separationism, if it becomes strong enough, is a growth mindset practice – the counter-movement becomes more accepted.
I also understand how you feel about wanting to talk things through with people who have a different mindset that you, but only if it’s a discourse, a dialogue, a shared experience rather than a one-sided lecture. I’ve recently experienced a lot of the “teach me” mentality from some folks who haven’t done their own homework, but the posturing isn’t about genuine learning, it’s about “prove it to me” defiance, and it’s draining, and it slows discussion down – and not just that, but it shows a serious disrespect for some of the basic tenets driving the discussion. So while I used to be all about talking it through with people… I”m a bit less so these days. I’m more apt to throw out a “catch up with the rest of the class.”
FS – yes, entitlement mentality… privilege doesn’t end with “what whites get,” like some folks here seem to be confused about, it extends to “what whites EXPECT” – the “right” to decide on what definitions are “common use”, the “right” to know everything about everything and hold that knowledge as special or expert… I’ve been thinking a lot about the epistemological ramifications of what we’ve been talking about here. White folks can’t ever know what the experiences of POC are – but it isn’t accepted, it doesn’t end there. This epistemology of ignorance is covered up, it is concealed actively by white folks, who are used to being in positions of power in regards to knowledge. That there is something white folks can’t know, well, I think that is really galling to some white folks – hence the “but I’m atheist, so that’s like being oppressed by race,” or “but I’m Jewish, so that’s like being oppressed by race,” or “but I’m a woman, so that’s like being oppressed by race,” or “but I’m white and I live in a non-white country, so that’s like being oppressed by race,” or whatever. It’s a way to try to maintain the power/knowledge discourse, like white folks have done with the education system for years by excluding the voices of POC. It’s not just saying that the histories and herstories of POC don’t matter, it’s also saying that if white folks can’t KNOW those experiences because of an epistemology of ignorance that results from white folks’ situatedness, then we gotta deny that those experiences are that different in the first place, we gotta deny that they exist, because we can’t admit that there is something white folks can’t know, because knowledge is power. And hence, the white experience becomes the privileged one, the only one, the one that stands in for all others.
I’m sorry, that came out kinda jumbled, does that make any sense to you? This was a sort of middle-of-the-night realization I had the other night as I woke out of a dream… it made deep sense at the time so I wanted to float it out to you here.
Thanks for posting Yolanda’s list – it’s brilliant.
TG: the dream you woke up out of, is the nightmare we live.
You said: “maintain the power/knowledge discourse”
This is it – underneath all the talk, the white folks who are triggered by me are mad because the “White Power/White Knowledge Discourse” is being challenged. I certainly won’t bow to that and they don’t like that. When white people like you challenge the WPWKD, you’ll get heat, too.
Sometimes I can’t believe I still talk to white people…and then I’ll read something like this.
What you said was incredibly deep and accurate. “If I can’t know, then that experience is invalid. PERIOD.” Or, they’ll reduce our experience to something approximating theirs – hacking all of the meaning from it to make it fit their narrow conceptions.
It is so clear. The subtext of this conversation has been like dealing with an alcoholic in denial. “I’m not an alcoholic/I don’t like the word alcoholic/okay, sometimes I drink too much, but its not a problem/I CAN CONTROL IT!!!” Maintaining the illusion, maintaining control.
But, when a white person can, like you did, say, wait a minute, even if a part of me doesn’t believe it, I am going to admit/not resist. I’m going to try-on the hypothesis that white folks are racist, not innately, but because of cradle-to-grave conditioning. I’m going to relax into that possibility and allow it to wash over me and THEN see/feel if it is true.
What is routine is resistance, resistance, resistance from the first syllable uttered. Or, this highly sophisticated denial where the person appears to concede that racism is a problem…but, but, but… re-re-redefining and decontextualizing, hierarchy-lizing(?) Isms, muddying the topic to the point that you’ve forgotten what the point of the post was.
Thanks for being a role model for your people.
FS – you’re too kind.
I’m glad you understood what I was getting at there…
it’s like ignorance about POC experiences is cultivated by white society. cultivated like a garden. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been surprised to learn something about POC. I think what surprised me most was when my light-skinned black friend in high school told me that she was discriminated against by darker-skinned folks in her community, made worse by the fact she was so frickin’ smart, she was accused of selling out, being too white, trying to be too white, trying to be a house negro, etc.
I think the ignorance is directly due to the “colourblind” discourse, that we’re all the same race: the human race, that differences don’t matter, that on the inside/in the dark we’re all the same. All the while we treat POC differently, and they treat us differently, and we don’t see that difference doesn’t go away just because we say it doesn’t matter, and that in fact difference matters a great deal when one difference is valued above another.
stupid colourblind bullshit.
TG, I have posted an apology on my blog to you. I also responded to your comment there in another post. I figured this was the most relevant place to mention it, so you would be aware of it…
Ok, since my neurons only now just started working well enough for me to realize I could put a URL in here (for easy clicking) I’ll include links to my blog where first, I apologize to you, TG:
http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2007/04/i-was-not-banned-at-thinkinggirl.html
and second, to my response to your thoughtful comment there:
http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2007/04/response-to-thinking-girl.html
Thanks DBB. I appreciate the apology.
[...] into the whole damn way we have constructed society (for anyone who had difficulty with my recent post on the [...]
[...] that I should have to do this, and I’m sure I’ll be accused of trying to redefine words again. But, as you may know, I don’t abide by definitions that the dominant oppressor class forces [...]
So, right on. It’s not about attacking but realizing the truth. What in your background, etc got you to this point if you are not a POC?
Ack – thanks for stopping by.
like I said in the post, I’ve always identified strongly with anti-racism, with the work done in the civil rights movement. I grew up in an area where race relations is very polarized into black/white, so there was always talk about racism around me. but what really pushed me over the edge (and months later I still stand by everything I wrote here) was my friend Max, AKA the FreeSlave, who pushed me to think/feel harder about my own racism, personalized it for me, and encouraged me to recognize it in myself so I could begin to heal it.
[...] person to deal with these issues and questioning? pointed, in the comments of my cross-posting to a similar post by Thinking Girl. If anyone else has relevant links that should be added, please let me know in the comments. [...]