reflections on undergrad
April 22, 2007 by thinking girl
well, things are slowly wrapping up for me and my BA. Two weeks ago now I had my last actual classroom class of my undergrad. My last exam of my undergrad. I won’t see all those same faces anymore in all my courses. Friends are moving, getting into programs here and there, getting apartments and jobs in other cities.
I still have to finish my thesis, and a half-credit via distance ed. Then, I will be totally finished. Hooray!
Undergrad has been good for me, in many ways. Some of the classes I’ve taken have completely changed my outlook on the world. Some of the people I’ve met have become wonderful friends. Some of the profs I’ve had have been very inspiring. And since my memory is like a butterfly net, I’ve actually learned a lot about a lot of different subjects of interest. I’ve accomplished what I hoped to, and more.
When I started my undergrad this time ( I had my first year already completed from the year after high school), I was 28 years old. I was very nervous about the whole thing - would I be able to write papers? Where would I begin researching? Would I find all my classes? Would I make any friends? Would it be weird to be almost 10 years older than most of my classmates?
My first day, the instructor I had for my first class (health care ethics) was no older than me, and likely was younger. It was quite a large class, about 100 students. I was early (for once in my life) and sat at the front. I was the oldest person there, definitely. I took copious notes. My next class (logic) was much smaller, about 40, and there was a woman in the class who looked to be about 50. The professor was an asshole. Same prof for my third class, which was fantastic - existentialism. That class was huge, but I recognized some of the faces. Those people ended up in most of my classes over the next two years. Some became good friends.
I was shocked by how many students were very conservative and non-analytic in their ideas, and conversely inspired by how many students were so very lefty. As many times as I rolled my eyes internally at arguments that failed to take into account the actual way society is set up, I cheered internally for students who obviously cared about social justice. And so it began for me. Philosophy is, ultimately, all about people.
As I went along, I realized that in order to understand people better, I needed to study more, to find out more about politics and religion and sociology and history and psychology. So, I chose my classes carefully, wrote my papers on topics I cared about (as much as possible - it was hard to care too much about Descartes after a while), and did a lot of outside reading to supplement my studies. However, I realized that the outside reading I was doing simply wasn’t represented by courses available to my through either of my departments (philosophy and gender & women’s studies). Where were the political philosophy courses? Where were the critical race theory courses? Where were the courses on continental philosophy and post-structuralism? Where were the courses on poverty and social welfare? Where were the courses in queer theory? on post-colonial thought? on indigenous studies? Here were topics that were covered briefly in some classes, but not in others where they would be most useful, and some not at all. It became a point of frustration.
But, of course, academia works in a particular way. We have profs in our departments who are experts in particular areas, and that’s what they teach. They don’t often go beyond their scopes of research. And so, courses are decided at a departmental level, based on what profs are there each year and what they know and are comfortable with teaching. So that’s what we learn. What the profs know, and what the department wants us to know, what they deem is important for us to know, what is important enough that they hire profs based on what they know about what the department wants us to know. (Standpoint theory, anyone?) Anything else we need to learn somewhere else.
I feel like every course was a survey course, not at all enough to delve into topics thoroughly, and some topics of importance were not represented at all. Eventually I learned that I had to write papers on topics that interested me or I wouldn’t have any opportunity to learn about those subjects that were not included in the curriculum.But still, it’s not enough. And, I don’t really think the work that could be done in a Master’s degree would be enough for me, either, to learn about all the things that I would like to learn about. It certainly won’t happen in law school.
So, nearing the end of my undergrad, I am happy, but also a bit frustrated. Some areas of interest have been identified for me, and now it is up to me to learn about them, not for credit at university, but for life.
I’ve been finding that out this week myself. I’m at the end of my M.A., and didn’t get taken up into the Ph.D. program, much to the surprise of me and just about everyone else I’ve talked to.
The realization that, in a small department (5-6 senior faculty who teach grad courses) I might not be able to study what I’d like because of just this thing: they won’t be able to provide me with what they don’t (or aren’t willing to) have.
Standpoint theory, indeed. Good thing I don’t agree 100% with what the department’s assessment of what’s important for me to know; otherwise not being recommended into the Ph.D. would have hurt a lot more.
I had begun to feel the restrictions of the program in my second year; I had originally ascribed that to “I’m just in the M.A. program; it’ll be different in the Ph.D.”
Now that I think about it — not so much.
There’s a lesson I could definitely learn from you, Thinking Girl… the energy you have within you, to feed your ever-hungry soul with knowledge… best of luck with all the things you are still eager to know more about… the answers must be somewhere, surely?
I took a Women in Music class this semester and it has been–by far–one of my favorite classes, but it definitely fell short of my expectations. As you said, what is taught within the class is mainly based on the professor’s knowledge. My interest happens to be women in rock and she didn’t feel comfortable with that topic at *all*…which, okay–I’ve been doing a lot of the research myself (I’m slightly obsessed…at this point if anybody sees me with a book they can guess-usually correctly-that it’s about women in rock) but outside of myself, how many of the other students know anything? and I don’t know everything and would have LOVED to have a little bit more of that in class discussions.
ah well. tomorrow I get to give a presentation on the riot grrrl movement. I almost want to change the presentation to a super quick overview of women in rock. haha. ^_^
Having been in bachelors, masters and Ph.D. programs, I can safely say that you will find limitations at all levels. Academics are, in essence, simply a survey of ideas…some more-or-less specialized, but biased nonetheless. Being a lifetime learner means finding the deeper meaning through actual experiences, human interactions and self reflection. Having had most of my identity wrapped up in education, it was difficult to finally admit that school is merely a springboard to your actualization and will not provide all of your analytical needs. Also, failure is a much better teacher than perfectionism
I’m with folkrockgirl… I’m in the midst of an MA/PhD program, taking courses with other grad students at all stages of that degree, and each of us has our own specific complaint against the course structure–at the moment, I’m less concerned that our professors are only able to teach their specialties (because we do a lot of the teaching ourselves) but more that they have widely varied ideas of what is “appropriate” content for a seminar paper. Some will encourage you to research whatever you like, others put baffling strictures on what texts you may use, and still others ask the question I’ve come to loathe: “How interesting is this?” (Very, to me, otherwise I wouldn’t bother.) But then, critical journals will make the same distinctions, so I may as well get used to it now.
But are at least two ways in which I think secondary education has significantly improved since days of yore: More focus on student-initiated research than just regurgitation of lecture material; and a broader canon of theoretical and primary texts in just about every humanities department–not just dead white guys anymore. (It’s possible that the breadth of texts lends itself to the survey structure you don’t like, but at least there is the opportunity to expose students to texts that would not have ordinarily read.)
Good luck in the school of life! : )
Congratulations!
When I graduated I was very satisfied with my degree, but at the same time had this feeling of “well now that the midterms are all taken care of, let the real learning begin!!” I have found it very hard to put the same kind of energy and focus into my personal studies-even when I have more time on my hands. Let me know how you deal with that and hopefully I can learn some tips. It’s wonderful to see how many “lifelong learners” there are inside and outside of academia.
Getting a degree is really about getting a piece of paper that gives you access to certain things, usually related to employment. That’s it. That’s all it is. Even with a law degree.
Areas that interest you - you are free to explore them and write about them in your life. So go forth and study what you like! You don’t need a professor to study what interests you.
Life teaches you far more than a class ever will. I just put up a post on my blog about my life just today about something I could never have learned in school - no one could have. (You might find that post of interest, come to think of it).
Enjoy passing the milestone. I know what you mean about being the oldest in class - I often was - I finished undergrad late because of a detour (and a major major change). I was even one of the older ones in law school, though there there were plenty older than me.
Wow. My experience is very similar to yours. I went back to school as an adult also, and had professors younger than me!! I had a lab partner in a course who was 10 years younger than me. Most of the students were busy mating. But some were really smart and engaged and inspiring. I remember cheering inwardly when a prof said, off the cuff, that any thinking person would be against the Iraq war. I remember sitting in on my sociology course and being astounded by the general leftward leaning of the text, and the instructor.
Much better than my first go-around in a very conservative history department. I remember choosing Hobsbawm to study for a historiography seminar and ..well.. not doing so well in that class.
I’m looking forward to my masters - i was reading one of the course outlines and we will be reading Franz Fanon and Edward Said. Ah, maybe I’ll finally find a place where I can learn from people who come from a similar perspective as I do.
Congratulations on going back to school older and wiser. It isn’t so easy, but in some ways I think you can get much more out of it this way: more mature, greater capacity for critical thinking, more life experience to bring to the table… so, congrats!
Thanks, everyone. great comments. I have to say, I really appreciate the thoughtful comments that everyone leaves me here (even when they challenge my take on things). I’m always happy to see all of you, and what I forgot to include in my post was how much having this blog, and interacting with the people who are good enough to come and read and share their own thoughts, has helped me to fill in some of the gaps in my education. I think some of the most interesting intellectual work I’ve done has been here in the blogosphere - at the very least, both spheres have overlapped and intersected and ended up influencing each other in very interesting ways. I love being able to take something from a class that may or may not have been dealt with adequately enough for my taste and bring it to this particular round-table, and all of you who come to engage with me are partly responsible for helping with that. So, I thank you for all of the stimulating conversations we have had here, and on your blogs as well. I feel like I’m blessed to have some of the most intelligent and thoughtful commenters in town come here to discuss things with me, to try to get a grip on this nutty world of ours. It helps me.
nightgigjo - oh, sorry to hear you didn’t get into the PhD program. I hope that it helps to know that so much of that kind of decision is political, about who can do the kind of work you want to do, about saving face and not stepping outside one’s sphere of knowledge, and ultimately about whether or not the people there can fulfill YOUR educational needs. go back to it later, do some research, find out where the best people to learn from and guide you are, and go there. I think this really is a case of it’s not you, it’s them.
And that’s the thing, you know - once you get past undergrad, so much is about limited study, one major topic of research for an extended period of time. So no wonder professors - especially a young and fresh faculty - don’t step outside their comfort zones too much!
Sunrise - thanks! I certainly hope my answers will come eventually.
riotgrrrl - sounds like my Women and Music class - the prof was all about classical and medieval music, not so much about popular music. It was still interesting to me, though! I know some of the other students were a bit disappointed - they were expecting more discussion about women in music that they know from their iPods.
folkrockgirl - I like that: “school is merely a springboard to your actualization” - good one!!! It’s so true - we spend so much time in academia worrying about our grades and getting our instructors’ approval that we can find it hard to get out of that mindset for the real world.
tanglethis - good point about the more broad base of exposure. In classes I’ve had with one prof in particular, an old-school kinda guy, he works through a text passage by passage, page by page, until you want to poke out your eyes with your pencil just to see if you’ll feel anything. And then you have to write two papers on it (this was the Descartes guy). So I guess I’m kind of grateful for a more broad base of readings, in some ways, although taking a little more time with some topics is completely warranted, and the complete lack of some topics is inexcusable. But yeah. For some topics, survey-style is definitely welcome.
Rainbow Girl - well, I can definitely relate to your problem of finding the motivation and energy to do the “outside” reading of interest - like, for example, my distance class isn’t going ANYWHERE right now, because I have little to no motivation to do it!!! The structure of a classroom setting really keeps me in line in terms of doing my reading and my work.
Maybe we should run a blogo-reading group? Get some people together on a certain book we’ve been meaning to read and do a fairly organized discussion? Like Twisty had going there, but with more structure. I could be into that….
Yes, “Lifelong learners” - that’s me. In fact, that’s what drove me to go back in the first place! Gotta keep on learning, all your life long. keep the old grey matter from deteriorating into oblivion.
DBB - yes, I really feel you are spot on - academia for most people is only about the end result of a degree that says they did it and now can do X or Y to make money. Life is where you learn the best lessons. But, academia does have its good points, too - the structure is a definite motivating factor, as well as the opportunity to have the resource of your professors who actually do know a lot about what interests you and can help guide your research, and the other students to bounce ideas around with, get into discussions with, help you to engage with the material better and feel your way through it together. I like that kind of community. However, like I said above, this community is pretty great for that too.
Red Jenny - we will definitely have to get together when I make the move to the big smog. We sound like we have a lot in common!
I had a problem with a paper this fall, I had to have it re-marked because the prof had an obvious bias against the position I was arguing for. I ended up getting the grade raised, but they never really want to raise it too much, out of professional courtesy to their colleagues or whatever. It wasn’t the best paper, but it certainly wasn’t as bad as he had marked it.
I’m not thinking too many students will share my perspective in law school. I’m kind of steeling myself for that. So many libertarian conservatives seem to go into law… I hope I’ll find a few like-minded pals to roll with.
I fully agree, going back to school with some years under your belt is a definite Good Thing. I got way more out of this degree than I ever would have when I was 18, that’s for damn sure.
Congrats to you too - and to all of you who have studied hard, who have gone back as mature students, who have gone to school part-time while working full-time, who’ve worked part-time while going to school full-time, and who have succeeded to your own satisfaction if not to that of the academe!
Hey TG:
I’m late to this, but I’ll toss in my congrats anyway.
I completed my undergrad 14 years ago and found, like DBB, that it had this magical ability to open doors for me even though I could not have picked a more useless program. I kept wanting to laugh at people and say “Uh, you do realize that’s a BFA in Music [fucking!] Theatre right?
For three years I’ve been taking night school classes to earn the CGA designation. It’s amusing how different a professional accreditation is from a liberal arts degree. The program is relentlessly practical. Even the business law course was stripped down to only the essentials required for an understanding of contract law, business organization and a whiff of tort (professional liability). I crave the semester breaks because I can finally read some of the books I used to read for fun, when I was in university.
I wonder how much of the mileage your degree will earn you just comes from having the perseverance to finish the damn thing!
“Maybe we should run a blogo-reading group? Get some people together on a certain book we’ve been meaning to read and do a fairly organized discussion? Like Twisty had going there, but with more structure. I could be into that….”
Oh sweet Jeebus yes! Yes! Yeeeeess.
Ooops. Sorry I did that all over your blog post.
A Book Club is an interesting idea. My wife was in one for a while but they sort of disbanded due to abstract busy-ness of life.
I think one interesting aspect of a book club is if it gets you to read a book you would never have read otherwise. Like where you let each member, when it is their turn, pick a book, then you all read it.
I have never been in a book club, but I got the same effect when I’d ask my wife, when she was shopping, to buy a book for me, any book. She brought some suprising ones home.
It is fun to discuss a book you are reading with someone who also just read it.
Oh, and I could probably write a long-winded blog post about how society demands people get degrees but the degrees themselves don’t really mean much (except that you have the staying-power to actually finish the program and get your piece of paper), but I’ll just leave it as is.
Law school, you’ll find, is very different from any other sort of education you’ve had. After the first semester or two, you’ll see that pretty much every single law class is the same at its core - learning the law by reading cases and then applying it to sets of facts. At some schools (not so much at mine) you can take, after the first year, a lot of esoteric, meta-law courses on legal theory, but unless you want to spend a lot of time discussing something you’ll never use, I’d suggest focusing on the courses that teach you the nuts and bolts of the law in as many different areas as possible.
And take moot court, mock trial, and stuff like that, because law school teaches you nothing about what you need to know to be a lawyer. It just teaches you the law.
ooooh ooooh! I love the idea of a reading group. I always wish I had someone to discuss things I’m reading.
And take heart, TG, there’s bound to be at least a few kindred spirits in law. There are actually people who go into law wanting to the do the Right Thing. Some get corrupted by the money, but some end up as human rights lawyers and other sorts of advocates. I know a divorce lawyer who is an environmentalist, dope-smoking, kensington-market-hanging type. So, it might not be so bad! We can always hope!
About nightgigjo’s situation: This happened to me from my undergrad almamater. They did not accept my Master’s application–so, since I was close to some of them, I found out that it was because none of them felt qualified to supervise my topic. But, they did say that this happens from time to time and it is just a matter of picking a school that can fulfill your needs. So I did. An now I am nearing ABD status. Anyway, just letting you know, this may not be personal–hell, they may even have wanted you to stay, but couldn’t.
FWIW
Congrats on nearing completion TG!
I loved my BA and MA all to bits! I did, however, totally go off on my own for my essays, and that’s all I really remember about the undergrad courses. But at least I was in a school that allowed that kind of freedom. The profs all strongly supported passion and wonder in favour of unnecessary restrictions. In my MA I think I had the best examples of teaching possible. The lectures had me on the edge of my seat. I kid you not! They were courses in religion and philosophy, but told by master storytellers. I even created a new independent study course in the philosophy of pornography. It was excellent (because I designed it for myself).
However, that was just my personal experience there. I met many students who were just jumping through the hoops to get a degree. Some were proud of the fact that they didn’t read a single book all the way through, but learned to cut corners. Cut corners? I wanted to get everything possible from the experience, and I did.
But I’ve got no interest in a PhD because the focus seems to have to be so incredibly narrow, I’m sure I’d get bored before it’s over. I can’t blog on the same topic more than three or four posts in a row.
thanks everyone!
schemanista - wow, good for you with the CGA. best of luck putting that to good use. And I totally hear you on the “books I used to read for fun” - it took me about 4 months to get through a fiction book I was reading because I would only allow myself to read at night before i fell asleep (which meant about 15 minutes per night!). I miss fiction.
DBB - well, being a philosopher and all, I’m pretty into the theoretical meta discussions that aren’t necessarily practical, so I’ll likely be signing up for some of those classes that you’re talking about!! I’m not really totally sure what I want to actually do with my law degree, but I know I’m not much interested in being a “typical” kind of lawyer. I’m interested in using my law degree for greater good, if you like, to support social justice and fight for changes to the cruddy system. I’m far more interested in policy than anything else. so for me, I think those classes you don’t find useful are likely exactly what I will find useful. If I can avoid stuff like tax law altogether, you can be damn sure I will!
Red Jenny - thanks, I hope I’ll find some kindred spirits there too! I’m going to do my best to get involved with some of the practical clinics offered, so hopefully I’ll be inspired by the work done there.
Femanist - thanks for sharing, I hope that helped nightgigjo.
Sage - sounds like you really made the best of your degrees and sucked the marrow out of every bit! good for you - I just don’t get the students who only do what they need to in order to get by. they’ll regret it later (maybe).
to all of you who want to do a reading group kind of thing - tell me more… any books in particular that hold some interest? I’m assuming we’re not really into doing a bunch of fiction best-sellers… what are the goals here? to learn more about topics that seem important to us? what kind of topics are we talking about? should we come to a consensus on the first book at least, and then maybe rotate choices? rotate hosting duties? how do we work it?
While you may find the meta-stuff interesting, it really isn’t very useful, because I think, in the end, law isn’t about them at all. Judges when they make law often, I think, decide how they’ll vote, then they come up with a rationalization afterwards. Perhaps not always, but often, so the reasoning behind an opinion in the meta-sense is generally useless and you can get a false sense of understanding from it. If you listened to Scalia’s theories, for instance, in the meta-sense, you’ll find that they don’t match his actual voting record.
That’s why, though I generally disagree with him most of the time, I respect Justice Thomas - he, at least, is consistent with his philosophy. He stands behind it even if that means voting against a party he’d like to win, at least, that is my sense of him.
If policy is what interests you, meta-discussions won’t get you far there. That takes political action. You may find that understanding the practical side of as much of the law as possible gives you more ammunition on policy than philosophy of law ever could. People have to live with the law as it is, and they will react to how they are affected by it. Not even many lawyers are all that in tune with the meta-stuff. Very little policy is made based on it. Though Posner writes some interesting books on the topic.
Oh, and you may think I’m a sick bastard for saying this, but I actually really really liked my tax class (it was required, too). I almost aced the exam on that one. Copyright law was also very interesting (did not have to take that one).
DBB - sorry, I don’t pay all that much attention to the US system, or individual judges there. And, considering most people don’t think my entire undergrad is all that useful, I don’t tend to worry about those things either. It’s always served me well to do what I find most interesting, and go from there.
Thanks very much for the advice, though - of course, the reality of the law is very important to understand. I have a sense that the first year will be most boring to me, in terms of required courses, but I’ll do my best to bring my own spin to everything.
I really liked my first year, though I had required courses long beyond that, and didn’t get property until my second year. I liked it because I was very curious about just how it all worked, with contracts, with property, with criminal law and procedure, with civil procedure, constitutional law and of course with torts. Those courses are all mostly survey courses, of necessity, but you’ll get a grand sense of “the law” from that and I think you’ll enjoy knowing it and seeing how it all interacts. It is also fun to read through some of the cases (you’ll read thousands) and see how the law evolved over time.
DBB - thanks a lot for taking the time to talk to me about this. I’m kind of getting excited for it now!
Congrats on your graduation:)))
I have to say - I learned more and still learn more, from my own strivings on my own. Of course in our culture, in order to ‘get ahead’ one is told they need a piece of paper that signifies their “trainability.”
But, I did get my degree, at the age of 40, because I just wanted to get it over with and not have it hanging over my head. Can’t say that I use it now.
But you’re gonna be a lawyer so, if I get clipped in Canada, I know there’s one conscious attorney I can call on!
Thanks FS - well, yeah, you and I have talked about this before, how education is largely jsut about kowtowing to the dominant forces in society, learning to speak their language, learning to internalize their history, learning their cultural practices… all with the hopes of forgetting that another way exists. “trainability” is an excellent way of putting it, for sure.
one of the big benefits to studying what I did was that it taught me not to accept blindly, but to question everything and try to find another way. so for that, I am very grateful. And, I’ll approach law school with those lessons in mind. I see the law as a tool, in a way, so I gotta find the best way to use it.
But, TG, if I need you…can I get some pro-bono?
Legal services…
FS - what other kind of services were you thinking of?
yeah, dude, I’ll help you out if I can. You bet!
I love the “butterfly net” metaphor!
The reality that one studies and studies and continues to yearn for more is an indication that that person [in this case yourself (and many others)] must continue in whatever way possible to socialize knowledge and engage in the process of critical evaluation and analysis. I have sought to do this in blogging–reading and trying to write precis after precis…along w/ working full-time, this gets hard. But, until the restraints of working and the expense of higher education change, perhaps this will be the way folks critically democratize and socialize knowledge!
I wish you well on writing your thesis. I remember that time as a not too distant memory–the constant reading, writing, and up to all hours of the night only to re-emerge in a few short hours to continue ready and writing. It seemed that the cycle would NEVER end, and quite honestly, I didn’t want it to! I loved, absolutely loved, writing my master’s thesis–insofar I can love a text/inanimate object.
Good luck, TG!