a little consistency shouldn’t be too much to ask
September 15, 2007 by thinking girl
and so, the other day, I met this person who in the normal course of bar-room conversation said, “I’m anti-vegetarianism. I believe everyone should eat meat.”
[stunned silence, even from the other carnivores present]
someone said, “Why would you be anti-vegetarianism?”
says she: “I grew up on a farm.”
[like that's an excuse. and of course, further proof of my pet theory, standpoint. but I let her keep on talking.]
he: “so, you think EVERYONE should eat meat, even if they don’t believe in eating meat, or want to eat meat, or like eating meat?”
she: “well… yeah.”
[maybe she's starting to realize that she's backed herself into a tight and strange corner.]
me: “I’m vegetarian.”
her: gulp.
me: “So why should my personal decision not to eat meat, according to my personal moral code be overridden by your opinion? I should really be, like, forced to eat meat against my will?”
her: “well, I’m just tired of vegetarians being all morally superior and forcing their opinions on the rest of us.”
me, twitching and nearly jumping into her mouth: “ummmm, this from the woman who just said she thinks everyone should eat meat? isn’t that a little bit inconsistent? And how does my personal decision not to eat meat have any impact on you whatsoever? I’m not the one sitting around saying that everyone should or shouldn’t do anything.”
[at least not at that particular moment in time, but that's another discussion.]
me: “so how do you justify slaughtering animals unnecessarily for food when it’s perfectly possible and healthy to not do so?”
she: “well, we already produce all this livestock, and if we don’t kill them then the world will be overridden with animals.”
me: “that’s a pathetic excuse for a reason. if we didn’t over-produce livestock, there wouldn’t be an abundance of animals in the first place. If we reduce the demand, the supply will also reduce. in response”
she: “Well, a lot of people make their living farming animals, so I think that justifies it.”
me: “I don’t think economic reasons are any justification for unnecessary mass slaughtering of millions of animals a year, not to mention raising them under inhumane conditions a lot of the time. I think people should be more aware of where their food comes from in general, and maybe then they wouldn’t be so wasteful of agricultural and environmental resources.”
she: “well in Europe, they’re way ahead of us in terms of tagging their meat and animal products so you can find out exactly where it came from and what kind of conditions they have on their farm.”
me: “good for europe. It still means millions of animals being killed unnecessarily. I don’t believe in causing any living thing unnecessary harm or suffering when it’s possible to live in a more harm-free manner.”
she: “I do.”
me: “well why would you want to deny other people the opportunity to live more humanely and make less impact on the planet and on other living beings? Just because you have a moral code that allows for unnecessary suffering so you can line your pocketbook and your stomach doesn’t mean everyone should have to live by that code.”
[okay, now the moral superiority is starting to come through just a little bit. although all was said with relative calm.]
she: no answer.
me: nothing more to say to such an obvious idiot. 
I turn away, wondering if I can really endure this person for another 3 years.
so, why is it that people are so uncomfortable with vegetarians? why is my mother always trying to get me to eat meat? why are the servers in restaurants always trying to get me to add meat to my order? why do people feel so threatened by my personal moral code? I mean, at this point I really can’t think of a justification for eating meat, raising livestock for slaughter, etc. along with many many other things like oh say having affairs with married people and having children as accessories and mistreating people who ring through your groceries and spending $3000 on a handbag. but, ya know, that’s just me. do I hold dear the hope that more people will view the world the same way that I do, and that maybe jsut maybe I could find one or two or ten more to spend my life hanging out with, and by a slim chance of a hope that our government might actually be down with some of my ideas about how the world should be managed? absolutely. Just like all those conservative right wing christian fundy nutbars wish everyone would wait for jesus and stop having gay sex and killing babies for fun and start to bomb the brownies with them.
I’ll continue to hold out hope. we’ll see what happens. give peace a chance!
fascist pigs.
You totally have to tell me who that was.
Also, do you know about the Monday-night vegan/vegetarian potlucks? You should come! They’re fun!
I can completely relate to you on this aspect, I’m vegetarian also. I really detest the fact that people always try to persuade me to eat meat. I really hate when you tell someone your a vegetarian and they say, really, why? Why does it matter?
It’s like they then look at me differently for my food consumption choices. Why is that? Why should I feel guilty for choosing to eat the the way that suits my body best? Argh!
Molly - you bet! gotta know who the crazies are so you can avoid them.
oh, I don’t know about the potluck thing, but I sure like that idea! when/where? give me all the info tomorrow, will ya?
Darian - yeah, exactly. I just think they’re threatened because in a roundabout way we’re forcing them to examine their own choices, and that’s not always comfortable for people to do. Vegetarianism is actually a completely rational and morally sound and physically healthy (for most) and responsible way to live. I personally think it is more so than being carnivorous. I just don’t get why some people think they can impose their lesser moral code on the rest of us. fascists!
Personally, I couldn’t care less what anyone else wants to eat (well, not ANYONE else- I care what my daughter and wife eat, particularly my daughter - I hope she never eats much candy - fruit is better, but then, you are supposed to care about your own family).
I eat meat because I like it. I certainly don’t expect anyone else to eat it - heck, if you don’t, that’s just more for me. If someone else doesn’t eat meat, hey, whatever. Just don’t try and dicatate your choice to me and I’ll return the favor. I think live and let live is a good philosophy to live by - rather than trying to force one’s beliefs down someone else’s throat.
I think part of the anti-vegetarianism dealie is fear of judgment, and an absolutely incorrect assumption that vegetarian == the most extreme PETA activist.
I know I feel guilty admitting to my generally-vegetarian co-workers that I’m an omnivore, even though I’m making an effort to support local providers, especially the grass-fed grass-finished and free-range varieties. Part of that guilt is a fear of judgment, and, guess what, memories of having that very stereotype instilled in my developing brain by the redneck meat-and-potatoes crowd that is my extended family.
you know what’s funny? I’ve never personally met anyone who was vegetarian who was domineering or tried to impose their values on me. Generally, I’ve only met those vegetarians who are relatively quiet about their choices, but who are happy to help out with recipes and tips when asked. I know of at least one friend of a friend who is very vocal about animal rights and veganism, but I haven’t personally met her. In my experience, I don’t recall any vegetarians I’ve met trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable about eating meat. Most of the ones I’ve met have been pretty accomodating to meat-eaters, bringing along their own food to dinner etc so as not to put out their hosts who might not be aware of how to cook vegetarian, with no meat-based products or cross-contamination.
so I find it really funny that so many people see vegetarians as pushing their opinions and lifetsyle on others. I see the exact opposite in my experience.
I can’t say vegetarians aren’t judging you meat-eaters, though. I mean, for me, I am not vegan, and still eat some animal products like honey and eggs and cheese and chocolate and ice cream, so I know that my choice to continue eating those foods mean that animals are going to be exploited for my cravings, which are not at all necessary but definitely make my life more pleasant (and honestly I can’t say they are 100% not necessary - during my period I can honestly say I NEED chocolate, and when I’m sick I NEED ice cream, or I am absolutely unbearable to others…
) I also still eat about one portion of fish or seafood a month, which of course has all sorts of negative environmental ramifications since most seafood is caught by trawling and that tears the shit out of the ocean floor. it’s not much, but I know that many people wouldn’t consider me a true vegetarian because of that, just like lots of people wouldn’t consider me a true feminist because I wear skirts and high heels and makeup. well, fuck that. I do what I can do, as much as I feel I am able to do and maintain my health and sanity (that’s the chocolate), and I don’t beleive that because I eat fish once a month that negates all the other things I do to make less impact on the environment and on animal suffering and exploitation. so I’m sure that I’m also subject to some judgement by other vegs and vegans, but again in my experience I haven’t been made to feel terrible because of my choices.
I would like to eventually become vegan, but I need to experiment a bit more with non-dairy alternatives and whatnot. I don’t think I’d miss seafood if I didn’t have it ever again, but I know I would be sad if I couldnt have an ice cream substitute that actually tasted like ice cream. and honey in my tea is pretty important. but then, bees? I don’t know that my animal rights politics extends to insects. I would kill a bee if it came down to it. I’m pretty much of the “cute furry animal” animal rights politics variety.
I do feel a bit judgmental toward people who eat animals, but I don’t make a point of it, and I am always glad to hear that people are making an effort to buy free range and grass fed and local. Personally, I don’t think “I like the way meat tastes” is any justification for eating meat, or the needless suffering that comes from it. I don’t buy any of the “humans are evolutionarily dominant so we have a right to kill animals and eat them, it’s natural” arguments for even a second. and I also don’t buy the “animals kill each other, survival of the fittest” stuff either. Humans are capable of overcoming their urges, animals are not, it’s very different. And I never cook meat, no matter who is coming over for dinner (the only fish I eat now is sushi). but it’s not like I’m loudly and publicly criticizing every person I see eating a ham sandwich.
jsut rambling there, sorry!
I don’t think one needs a justification for eating meat (or anything else for that matter). Isn’t it just “animal privilege” to assume that the lives and sufferings of animals matters more than plants?
I think one just has to accept that if you exist as a human being, that means that other life forms, be they plants or animals (or both) will suffer because of it either because you eat them, or because your food (such as vegan food) is grown on land that required destroying millions of acres of habitat for millions of animals, probably making some of them today (or eventually) extinct.
Truly, the only way to stop having an impact like that is to commit suicide, because as long as you live and consume living material to do so, some form of life will be suffering or end because of it. Even stuff we don’t eat destroys habitat - the factories to make your shoes, etc.
And just because one can overcome “urges” doesn’t mean that it is always the “morally correct” thing to do so.
of course you don’t think one needs a justification for eating meat (or anything else for that matter).
“animal privilege”? that’s rich. It’s certainly “human privilege” to assume that the tastes of humans are more important than the pain and suffering of animals, or the environmental degradation of our planet.
yes, it’s true, being human does generally involve other beings suffering. I do what I can to reduce that suffering, you accept it as the cost of doing business.
and yes, overcoming urges isn’t always necessary in order to be morally correct. but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t morally correct to overcome one’s urges, or that not overcoming one’s urges is morally correct. again with the logical constitency.
Yes, “animal privilege” - why should the plight of animals be any more important than the plight of plants? Both are living things.
I didn’t say anything about the “cost of doing business.” I am not for suffering of anyone or anything. But at some point you have to draw the line. At some point, I get to destroy life in order to protect or sustain my own. Just fighitng off an infection or eating a salad is destroying life in that regard. For almost everyone, that line is drawn at the “human” line. Unfortunately, some blur that line and destroy humans as well. Others extend it away from humans down to animals. Some extend it to plants. Some expand it to the very rocks (though probably very few). But who is to say what line is the “morally right” line. I would think the best consensus is with humanity, and with any other sentient races we discover (be they aliens from another planet or dolphins or bonobos). Certainly that does not preclude showing some concern about the treatment of other forms of life we raise and destroy for food. But I will never apologize for destroying certain forms of life. For instance, when they made smallpox extinct, I said good riddance.
And as for the environment itself, for purely selfish reasons, we should be very concerned - or else we are dooming our descendants to an uninhabitable planet. I certainly don’t want to do that to my daughter and her children.
One place that people have suggested drawing the line is at “capacity to experience suffering”. Plants don’t have brains that can feel pain, so you can eat them. Insects probably can’t suffer. Jellyfish can’t suffer, either. Mammals and birds generally do seem to have the capacity for suffering; most reptiles and amphibians probably do have sophisticated enough brains, although some may not. I really don’t know about fish, though.
I’m just curious for anyone who wants to answer…
When is the last time a vegetarian tried to convert you? I’m pretty sure I’ve never tried to push, persuade or for that matter tell anyone not to eat meat. Yet, when I find myself in a situation where I’ve never actually sat down with this person to eat, it always becomes a subject for comment that I am a vegetarian.
“I think one just has to accept that if you exist as a human being, that means that other life forms, be they plants or animals (or both) will suffer because of it either because you eat them, or because your food (such as vegan food) is grown on land that required destroying millions of acres of habitat for millions of animals, probably making some of them today (or eventually) extinct.”
I think that is the most comical thing I’ve read, and you just made my day.
I agree with Doug S. plant life does not have the capability to feel, nor interact with you. I truly believe in that saying “survival of the fittest.” Humans eat meat because they can, because we are the superior race when it comes down to it. We don’t need to eat meat to survive, it’s a choice you see. I have no qualms about what someone wants to put in their body, it’s your body not mine.
I don’t know if I buy into the ‘higher’ moral code from being a vegetarian. Vegetarians still use products made from animals, just through the daily life and interactions in our world — its almost impossible not to. Is there really a difference between not eating a steak once a week, but yet buying shoes, wearing coats, buying a backpack or bag, using most types of seats (especially in a car), the list could go on.
A true believer is totally free of animals, walking around naked or in hemp — and never use or interact with anything in our world. That is the ONLY humane way of living.
I jest of course.
TG> You’re using the phrase ‘fascist pigs’ alot — is there something we should know?
doug - yep, precisely. it’s not just “life” per se, but sentient life, life that can actually feel pain (and pleasure for that matter). that’s where my moral code lies.
DBB - if you’re actually concerned about the environment, then you should stop eating meat. animal agriculture is a leading cause of greenhouse emissions and environmental degradation.
TTB - well, many vegetarians make a point to try to avoid animal products that require the animals to be dead. I don’t buy leather anything anymore, for example. As I said, I’m gradually working my way to veganism, trying to eat and use less and less animal products.
yes, I like the phrase ‘fascist pigs’. that’s all there is to know! I’m pretty much against fascism!
I thought pigs were Communists?
This is of course not at all the same thing, but I think it comes from a similar place on the part of the people doing it, so bear with me until I can get to my point:
My fiancé and I are not into drinking alcohol. He had a drinking problem for a while and I was never really that into the weird, not-in-control feeling it gives me and so the two of us made a command decision to just not mess with it anymore. We are therefore not having any alcohol at our wedding. Cue my family, trying to get us to have alcohol at our wedding against our wishes, because people love alcohol, it’s awesome, and my sister, who has never respected my right to be a human being distinct from her, is making noises about holding me down and forcing alcohol down my throat.
People enjoy a given thing, like meat or alcohol. They’re aware that there are people who aren’t into that thing, for good reasons. And they feel threatened by that, because they think that if someone chooses differently than them it invalidates their choice. They think that if you have a good reason not to eat meat, or if I have a good reason not to drink alcohol, that has to be their reasoning too–which would be nice, I’ll admit, but you and I both know that forcing that would be wrong.
But the point is, they don’t respect our right to make a choice that’s different than theirs. They think if one person has a good reason for something, then oh noes, that will mean everyone will have to do that same thing. Not consciously, I don’t think, but they do have that backlash to it. They don’t want somebody to be different from them, because if someone is different from them, that might mean that they themselves could be wrong.
Which is like religion, in a way.
“They don’t want somebody to be different from them, because if someone is different from them, that might mean that they themselves could be wrong.
Which is like religion, in a way.”
lol…I think that sums it up quite well. Food and eating habits already feature highly in many religious doctrines.
Maybe religion itself isn’t really the big divisive evil that I thought it was; maybe humans are just destined to argue about something, anything, and Vegetarianism will be the next religion.
Why are most of the people that comment on my site douch bags? This is a great discussion. And, TG, I thought you handled the initial conversation very well. It’s frustrating, but engaging people that don’g get it is important.
I’m a little late in this discussion, I know, but I had to respond to at least two things:
1. someone said: I think one just has to accept that if you exist as a human being, that means that other life forms, be they plants or animals (or both) will suffer because of it either because you eat them, or because your food (such as vegan food) is grown on land that required destroying millions of acres of habitat for millions of animals, probably making some of them today (or eventually) extinct.”
Most of the farmland, over 80% in the US, is used specifically to grow food for livestock. Don’t even get me started on water and waste issues.
2. Someone said: I agree with Doug S. plant life does not have the capability to feel, nor interact with you. I truly believe in that saying “survival of the fittest.” Humans eat meat because they can, because we are the superior race when it comes down to it. We don’t need to eat meat to survive, it’s a choice you see. I have no qualms about what someone wants to put in their body, it’s your body not mine.
You’ve obviously never eaten from your own garden or paid attention as you walk through the woods; a nonhuman animal’s life is just as important to them as ours are to us. I don’t think of plants as being much different. Of course we interact with them. And of course the interact back. If you don’t think they are, it’s because your not paying attention, not listening.
The survival of the fittest argument for eating meat is really messed up. Factory farms have nothing to do with the superiority of our species. It has everything to do with a culture that values control, one that obtains this control by exploitation. Humans are not naturally abusive, controling creatures.
I wrote a column for a N. Arizona magazine on this very topic. It’s enraging so I should stop, but it is infuriating to me when I hear such illogical justifications for abuse and torture. It’s not consuming the flesh of another that I have a problem with, its the way in which it is done. It is the stories we tell ourselves about where our meat comes from that blinds us from what we’re doing to ourselves and our relationship to the real world.