Here we are, the first of a series of FF requests! I’ll start at the top, with Geo’s request to talk about platonic female relationships. Geo said: “How about writing about Feminism – and Women “competing for male attention” and otherwise – treating other women – without respect. Often it is said that teenage girls and some older women can be extremely hard on each other – in contrast to the other common theme of women bonding with each other in ways that Us Men – generally don’t do. Obviously – this would be a more “personal” rather than research related topic. I would think that Feminist Consciousness could help a lot in this area and probably does.” Geo, I am taking your cue, and I will write about some of my personal experiences with competition and apply a feminist analysis of those situations.I have already written at length about female competition, but I will recap a bit here before I expand the discussion. Female competition exists essentially because of the patriarchal basis of society. Patriarchy prevents women from achieving socio-economic success to the same extent as men. (Remember, this is only one part of patriarchy, and some women are able to achieve more socio-economic power than some men, but in general, men still statistically make 1/3 more than women for the same work – and as old as that statistic is, it is also still current because things haven’t changed for 30-odd years.) Under patriarchy, a woman’s best chances of improving her socio-economic status is to marry. In general, women live longer than men, and there are more women of “marrying age” than there are men – not more single women than single men, but more women than men above the age of 25. Because of this, women are in competition with one another for male attention, and they compete with one another through femininity practices.
Now, in my previous discussion of competition, I talked a bit about my female friendships past and present, and how I have had some friends who have been competitive with me despite my non-competitive nature. I have had a good deal of competition from not friends, but other females in my sphere – my workplaces.
The places I have worked in were competitive by nature. In the aesthetics field, there is a real interest in retaining clientele, selling a lot of products, and performing treatments that are fairly expensive. This is especially the case if staff is paid on a commission basis, as I was for many, many years. This was the only thing that brought out any competitiveness in me. I wanted to make more money, and so I had to specialize in an area where I would have the best chance of doing more expensive treatments and selling a lot of product. I had other considerations, like not having to do certain treatments I found to be boring and/or physically uncomfortable to perform. So, I chose to specialize in skin care, where treatments are upwards of $100 and the opportunity for retail is high. I was fairly successful with this approach, and everywhere I worked, there was a level of jealousy among my co-workers that did not have the specialized training, product knowledge, experience, and technique that I worked hard to achieve. It caused quite a bit of back-biting at several workplaces, most significantly the one I had before my current job, and in the business partnership I had before that (now I don’t have any co-workers who do the same thing as me, so workplace competition is nearly non-existent for me now, thank god). At my last job, there was one woman in particular that tried everything in her limited power to undermine me. She was most successful with turning other staff against me – before I worked my first shift! I had been hired to replace her, though she didn’t know it at the time, and neither did I know she didn’t know… so she felt threatened, naturally. Her anger and resentment was directed not at the proper place – the management – but at me. Luckily, I did manage to make some lasting friends at that workplace, so she didn’t reach everyone. The general air of resentment and jealousy of my career, combined with my growing disinterest in my career and my general attitude of not really caring what people think of me, led to a lot of tension in that workplace. I’m very happy not to be there anymore.
Before that, I owned my own business. I had a partner, and between the two of us, we were the most successful aestheticians at our previous workplace, where we worked together for 5 years before opening our business. We always got along quite well when we worked together, but once we were business partners, things took a nasty, terrible turn. My partner showed her true colours as a cruel and mean-spirited control freak. I continued on as the same person I had always been, tried to do my best, worked my ass off, and maintained my laid-back nature, which of course drove her insane. Unfortunately, a bunch of things combined against me at that time in my personal life, and I was unable to cope with the day-to-day incivility and cruelty my partner showed me. I left the partnership after a little over a year. It was the worst year of my life.
I should note that I consider myself to be relatively blameless in these two situations. In my last workplace, I did absolutely nothing to deserve or encourage the sort of maliciousness that I experienced. I did not participate in gossipping in the workplace, I was always polite to everyone I worked with, I tried to be helpful and kind and even went out of my way to be so to the very person who was most awful to me thinking that might help matters, and I always performed my job to the best of my abilities. In my business partnership, although I had a lot going on in my personal life at the time, I worked my ass off. In fact, I threw myself into that business in order to take my mind of my personal life. And despite the fact that my partner was horrible to me on a daily basis, I did my best not to discuss it with anyone I worked with – they were, after all, my staff. I remained as professional as possible, despite the fact that all my staff knew there was outward hostility between myself and my partner. In fact, I ran into one of my former employees – and a personal friend – a couple of months ago (I left three years ago), and she asked me then, for about the fourth time, what had really happened, because she still didn’t really know. I finally told her, but not in explicit detail.
So, now, what do you think of this? Doesn’t seem on the surface of these two situations that patriarchy is to blame for these two women feeling competitive towards me. Could it be they were just jealous, mean people? Well, yes, and they both are in fact mean people who can’t stand the success of others. I have nothing good to say about either one of them, in fact. But, yet, there is an element of patriarchal interference at play in both of these situations. Because women have the background condition of patriarchy to contend with in any aspect of their lives, including matters of socio-economics, there is an added pressure on women going into any relatinoship with another woman. Patriarchy is about power – not just power men have over women socially, but power between men and between women. My ex-business partner always had to be in control of everything, and resorted to petty and underhanded tactics in order to gain control. One of her favourites was intimidation. She was so good at making other people feel like shit she could get an award for it. I’ve never encountered anything like it before or since. The other woman I worked with used the tactic of gossip. She talked about everyone behind their backs, to anyone who would listen. She encouraged others to “confide” in her as well.
So, why the power plays in these small interpersonal relationships? What does it have to do with men? When you look at patriarchy as a system of social control it becomes easier to see how relationships between women are affected, even when there are no men involved. Patriarchy involves power differentials between men and women. However, also affected are relationships between men and other men, and women and other women. Patriarchy is a background condition that informs all social relationships. The power imbalances between men and women play out most between men and women, but powerlessness among women affects their relationships with each other as well. Women are in competition with one another, no matter their conditions, and there is a hierarchy among women to be the most desirable in all kinds of ways, and this plays out through jealousy, manipulation, gossipping, and hosts of other malicious behaviours. Patriarchy has put all women in the same boat, and many cases, instead of working together by creating solidarity and supporting one another’s attempts to achieve socio-economic freedom, women work against each other and try to push one another overboard.
Hmm. I agree, completely. To add: I think, from a psychological/behavioural perspective, patriarchy causes a certain and very particular anxiety in women. And like all anxiety it produces a fight or flight response. Enter the absolutely imperative position of feminism (as educator and magic carpet for us to travel upon) in life: if we women understood that that ‘itching, uncomfortable, focusless, fighting’ feeling (social anxiety) was actually the all pervasive presence of patriarchy RATHER than a (sometimes wrongly attributed) power play by another woman, then, inside this knowledge ( a feminist reading of humanity) we would be more able to take a deep breath, chill-the-hell-out and help fight the force that we could well do without, instead of fighting eachother, who we need.
Feminist readings gave me the lingo to see the above example and hear what you are saying about competition. Before I read women’s thinking life was full of wonder but embued with a yucky nameless feeling.
Anyway…time for me to hit the hay (I’m in Australia.)
dijar
great comment Daniela. I think you’ve hit on something really interesting there, that social anxiety. Something I didn’t talk about here was what it’s like when women first meet other women. I have met several women who, on first meeting them, I thought were something totally different than they turned out to be. I had a friend years ago who seemed so snobby when I first met her, but actually was really sweet and very personable. The Girl with Moxie audio-posted something about that the other day on her blog, that there is an immediate power play between women who first meet to establish a hierarchy of dominance, through techniques like interrogation and intimidation. Does this happen between men? Does it have the same sort of ramifications? I would guess that power plays like this still happen between men, but that the ramifications are not the same because of the inherent social power men have, and the fact that men are not taught to care so much what other people think of them personally. I wonder… guys, any thoughts?
Great approach to the issue(s) I raised as well as comments! I think that men have the dominance issues – at the forefront – if there is any emotional content to the issue, such as controling another woman or women as a whole in particular. With men in some situations and among some men, physical violence can be possible.
My sense is that men will focus on “honesty” – which relates to dominance, rather than the relationship and the feelings of the other.
I think that men and women are similar in that we both are fueled by feelings of insecurity/inferiority or similar fears that push us to hurt others.
Thanks again!
thanks to you Geo for bringing the subject up!
interesting – the honesty point. As in, “I’m just being honest with you, pal” or “I gotta be me”?
– just checked out your blog on rec from a friend – interesting stuff – made me think of the essay “On secrets, lies and silence” by Adreinne Rich which i think appears in “Bread, Blood” and – i forget the whole title. Anyway it’s very much about the construction of female power as somewhat “underhanded” in that men traditionally are able to express their power in open power roles, women often have to disguise their power by operating ‘under the radar’ outside power roles (“behind every suceessful man is a woman” type stuff)
Thus women throughout history are seen to utilise suspect or subversive power (often acting as ‘seducers’) rather than just being outright confrontational. This is where you get women who – like your work partner it seems – gossip, backstab, and compete through men ( flirtatious and sexual competition) in order to maintain power wihthout compromising their so called “feminity” by being openly powerful.
is that what you mean? It seems to resonate through what you say.
All the best and do check out Rich.
HI Anon,
Oh, won’t you please tell me your name, even if it’s a fake one, just so I don’t have to address you as Anon? Thanks so much for coming by, though, and contributing to the discussion.
I don’t think I’ve read Rich, but this sounds like an extension of what I’m writing about here, yes. When women (and other groups) are exluded from societal power structures, sub-structures pop up. IT’s only natural that the powerless try to become powerful relatively to other members of their own group and then other groups again (white women are more powerful than women of colour, hetero women more powerful than lesbians, abled women more powerful than disabled women, etc.) What Rich seems to go into that I do not here is the (false) idea that women are secretly the ones in control. Women have had to be crafty in this patriarchal world to get by and get ahead. I think this is perpetuated by men as well, where men often give over control of certain aspects of their lives together with women to those women (household management, childrearing, money management), and then complain about not feeling powerful or feeling emasculated. And waht a crime it is to be the woman who emasculates her man! How terribly awful that is! Masculinity must be preserved at all costs, after all. Hence, the subversive power you describe – seduction, taking credit, etc.
This reminds me a commercial that is running right now where a husband and wife are going through the drive throguh for ice-cream, and the man is playfully keeping the ice-cream out of reach and being a bit of a jerk about it. The woman grabs it and says “Bet you feel really powerful right now, don’t you?” And he says,”First time in a LONG time,” at which the woman grabs his away from him and he says, “And it’s over.” Seen it? It had my feminist radar tingling. AS if in the general scheme of things this white middle class hetero male isn’t powerful?!??
without disagreeing with you about the factors that influence relationships between women, i.e. no doubt, *in some cases* perhaps societal forces are to *blame* for the behavior women exhibit towards other women – can’t all the aforementioned behavior, in some cases, merely be flaws of the women involved…and, additionally, to bring up the old debate, what about personal responsibility – i.e. societal forces may steer a person in a direction, but a person’s choices are still her/his own…
regardles sof the theory or philosophical framework, i think the tendency for people to try to explain every phenomenom with respect to a specific ideology can have the tendency of stretching a theory to the breaking point…
kind of reminds me of the john goodman character in the big lebowski – and the dude’s observation – not everything has to do with vietnam…
One thing I’ve notice with power struggles at work is that it always seems exacerbated when there is only one gender involved, like in a all-male or all-female department in an office. I don’t know if it’s a question of competition or the lack of diversity, but I’ve always noticed that homogender workforces tend to create problems.
yes, Mike, to be sure you have a point. I have worked with lots and lots of women over the years – and not all of them are like this. Some of them are complete and utter pushovers who never speak up for themselves and jsut take whatever management and their coworkers dole out to them. Some are kind of oblivious to all inter-office antics and march to their own beat. They seem to do well for themselves, but are never waht you might call successful. It seems like the really successful ones are the ones who assume a pseudo-masculine – alpha male – identity. I think this is something that was missing from my post: women must either play along with patriarchy in terms of being obsessively feminine or play along in terms of assuming a more masculine identity in order to be successful. On the one hand we have Pam Anderson (a favourite example of mine, I know, but she proves my point so well), who has personified every stereotype possible about women and made millions of dollars doing it. On the other hand, we have someone like Carolyn who works for Donald Trump, who is tough as nails and not very feminine at all. Then we have MArtha STewart, whom I’m sure I could write an entire post about, because she is tough as nails and very masculine, but perpetuates so many traditional expectations for femininity and women. It’s like she is a masculine woman whose maculinity gives her enough authority to instruct other women in how to be more feminine, thus reinforcing her own position as a successful alpha-male woman. Whew!
I think this is where the nature vs. nurture thing comes in that you have asked me to discuss a bit. I look mostly at socially constructed models of behaviour, particularly those affecting women. But, the thing is, every person has their own personality makeup that is natural, with which socially constructed models of behaviour interact. So, while some people are affected by social conditions like patriarchy in particular ways, others are affected in different ways. However, I will completely stand by my initial claim that everyone is affected by patriarchy in some way, and that although some people are naturally predisposed to certain personality traits, patriarchy also plays a part in informing people’s behaviour – and perhaps even in defining their personalities to an extent. I think the personal responsibility comes into play in terms of accepting how we are naturally constituted (i.e., how we feel inside), and how we have interacted with outside social pressures. If I am naturally a quiet, non-aggressive, non-confrontational person, and I realize that I have interacted with a social system like patriarchy such that I have assumed a traditional docile feminine role in my life, I have to take responsibility for that, and if I want to change my situation, it is I who must change before I can work to facilitate a societal change.
what do you think about this idea? Does this make more sense to you?
(I really do value your comments Mike. You force me to think further about what I have written, and be more clear about things. Thanks!)
Marc Andre,
Really? It is more intense with all-male workforces too? How so? Is it similar to what I have described, or are guys more up-front with one another because there’s not that pressure to maintain a nice feminine disposition? I”m convinced that gender roles really play a part in how subversive women can be in terms of using underhanded and behind-the-back methods against their coworkers, like gossipping for example. My gossippy coworker still tried to maintain an “earth mother” nurturing caring feminine persona despite the nasty things she was doing. My business partner, on the other hand, assumed a really aggressive masculine persona and her tactic was to subvert the feminine role I was playing by being aggressive and laying everything out on the table in terms of what she didn’t like about me as a person and as a business partner. She was always going on about her “integrity” and how she had nothing to hide, that I was the one who wasn’t being honest and upfront with her. She wasn’t really able to out-feminine me, as some women try to do to undermine the position of other women, but she was able to out-masculine me. I just didn’t have the aggressive nature she did to come back at her just as strong. IT’s jsut not who I am.
I made a comment I wasn’t comfortable with, it was a bit hypocritical, and after sleeping on it I removed what was inappropriate and could be taken out of its intended context (rather than having to explain my intended context etc.). When I arose to do so, I found an anonymous comment awaiting me (actually, i know who posted it, but they chose not to leave their name). I also removed it, as it alluded to the comment I made that I wasn’t happy with, as well as a threat to expose the comment to the concerned party. If you saw the comment, you know what I’m talking about. If not, don’t ask me, I’m not talking about it again. I apologize to all and any concerned. I did not mean to be offensive, but I was. We all make mistakes, including me. Sometimes I have no choice but to censor myself. I wouldn’t be honest if I didn’t let you know about this. Because of this and my anonymous troll, I also reserve the right to censor anyone else who may choose to comment on my blog. Comment moderation is now turned on. It may take a little bit to see your comments appear. I promise I will use moderation sparingly.
From what I observed, in all-men work environments (at least in offices), people are not necessarily more upfront about it, they’re just differently hypocritical. There is still a need to supply a “friendly” work environment; although competition is more open there is still a good deal of backstabbing (at least, that was the way in government).
Talking about your business partner, you say that “she wasn’t really able to out-feminine [you], but she was able to out-masculine [you].” I’ve seen the opposite: the man who can’t out-man the others, so uses a more “feminine” persona as a way to manipulate.
“She was always going on about her “integrity” and how she had nothing to hide.” That’s always a good sign that the person isn’t.
i read just the last line of comment 11, and got a chuckle – not realizing you were referring to comment moderation – use moderation sparingly…just struck me as funny… sounds like a suggestion on how to live one’s life… lol….
anyhow, re:your response to me – sounds reasonable… there are so many factors that goes into the makeup of every person – and their responses to these factors, which themselves changes the environment which further impacts the person (i.e. karma), ad infinitum – i think this needs to be acknowledged – the individual makeup of each person – of which environmental factors are one component – and of these environmental factors the reality of society dominated by males is one component – and i say this not to minimize the influence of living in a male dominated society on women AND men (as you have acknowledged, the effect on men is not completely positive), but to marvel at how complex each of us are…
Mike, I concur. We are fascinating creatures, n’est-ce pas? On another note, do I ever love the idea of karma. I’ve always been drawn to it. It’s such a great idea in terms of just keeping positive energy going and knowing that what you put out into the universe will come back to you somehow, good or bad. I like it.
Marc: interesting, the thing about some men assuming feminine personas to throw off other men and manipulate them. And yes, I agree, those who talk about their integrity all the time do seem questionable, especially if they aren’t really acting with much.