just got in the door from an evening out with some new friends from school. on the way from the streetcar stop to my corner, all of a two minute walk, I experienced some street harassment. guy crossed the street and followed me in the opposite direction to where he was going to do it. fell in step behind me, started calling out to me, “hey, slow down, I’m not going to do anything to you, I just wanna talk to you, you’re so beautiful, hey baby” bullshit. I try to ignore him, but he was persistent. Lucky for me, on my corner is an all-night pizza place. so I walk in there. no way am I going to allow this idiot to see where I live. mama didn’t raise no fool. once I’m in there, of course he follows me in. I decide, no. no more street harassment for this girl.
so I turn on the guy. I tore him a new one for harassing me in the street like some piece of meat, threatening me and following me. he tells me he jsut wanted to compliment me, can’t I take a compliment, why am I so uptight? I tell him no I can’t take a compliment from a strange man calling out to me in the street at 1:30 in the morning when I’m walking by myself, I don’t give a shit what he thinks, why does he think he has to right to harass me in the street, I’m not public property, and fuck off. a nice couple from my streetcar asked me did I need help, offered to walk me home, which they did, making sure he was gone by then, and that was the end of that. she was much more understanding of my predicament than he was, no surprise there, he was like, you only live two doors down? and she was like, well, she didn’t want him following her to her door, did she? (with ‘you twit’ just dripping from her voice.)
this reminds me of an argument my friend and I had recently with a friend of her boyfriend. we told him that many women view men as potential rapists in certain contexts, that women were raised with the fear of rape burnt into our brains from an early age as simply the worst thing that could ever happen to you as a woman (not that it is or isn’t, just that this is what women are taught). He was completely offended and pissed off by this statement, and of course took it personally to mean that we both thought he was, as a person, capable of raping someone. He got so mad that he packed up his toys and went home, actually. there was no seeing reason for him that night, that the stats simply add up for women to view men this way, particularly in situations of vulnerability. and of course, no way for him to drop his male privilege for even a second to try to understand where we were coming from.
well, there you go. combine the culture of the fear of rape with general street sexual harassment by men, and this is what you get. was I actually afraid of this guy? well, I was nervous enough to walk into that pizza place rather than walk the twenty more feet to my door.
and I hate that. I hate that I couldn’t walk the literally three and a half minutes to my door from the streetcar stop without being harassed. I hate that I felt afraid of a guy who I probably had 20 pounds and 5 inches on. I hate that I had a couple walk me to my door. I hate that if I had been dressed differently, it probably wouldn’t have happened. I hate that I actually felt bad about using the pizza place as a refuge and bringing that confrontation into their place of business. I hate being viewed as public property by some random asshat in the street. and I hate that this happens every day to billions of women all over the world, to varying degrees of severity. I HATE IT.
when that couple offered to help me, I had my cell phone in my hand to call the police. what would they have told me? would they have done anything to make me feel safer, or would they have laughed at me? if that couple hadn’t been there, would someone else have offered to help me? would I have had to wait until that guy left? would I have had to ask someone to intervene, throw the guy out?
so, what can we do about street harassment? I don’t want to have to make sure that I never go anywhere by myself. I want to have the freedom to walk down the street, by myself, dressed however I want, at any time of day or night, without being harassed. and I want every other woman to be able to have that too. it’s simple really.
how can we make this happen? I think street harassment is just as important a topic to deal with as sexual harassment in the workplace. it’s like blue-collar vs. white-collar crime, you know? so what can be done about it?
[by the way, I remember a discussion about street harassment somewhere not too long ago (someone remind me where and I’ll provide a link) that intimated that more men of colour were street harassers than were white men. This guy was white. the real question is, would I have rounded on him in the same way if he wasn’t? would I have felt more less threatened by a harasser of another shade?]
You’re right that this matters as a topic, and you’re right that street harassing is a behavior that is borne out of male privilege. “I’m looking at you, so I’m gonna make you look at me!” I’m pretty sure it’s an intimidation thing rather than a real sexual come-on… as someone who routinely walks solo in the city, I haven’t seen too many women respond favorably to this kind of calling out (although I’ve seen a couple who have).
And since I walk routinely, I find myself in this position routinely. I usually do one of three things:
If I’m busy, I just keep walking.
If he engages me in conversation, I invoke my real or imaginary boyfriend. Works like magic, y’all.
If he catches me by surprise – and I mean, completely by surprise, because I’ve heard it all – then, in shock, I default to embarrassing Nice Woman behavior.
All of these things are band-aids, not solutions. They keep me safe for the time being, but I’ve been concerned for some time that they’re actually enabling this behavior – particularly the last two, “Oh I’d be available to you if only I wasn’t under the protection of another male!” and “Despite the fact that you interrrupted me and are objectifying me, I can’t bring myself to be rude to you.” I’d like to think that confronting the aggressor in a reasonably safe environment (as you did) could shock him into reconsidering his behavior for at least the rest of the night. I’ll have to prep some aggressor-speech. The hair-trigger reactions (cursing, flipping off) aren’t any good – like your aggravating brother, street harassers are gratified by seeing inarticulate discomfiture.
But look. Women can’t end harassment any more than black people can end white racism – that onus has to be on the people doing ill. And this makes me think of that Ten Things Men Can Do list… if you broke through to men like your friend’s “la la la can’t hear you!” friend, he can then curb his own behavior and encourage his friends to do the same. That’s the only solution I can think of at 7am on a Sunday, anyway.
Hi, I couldn’t help commenting on the last bit. Black /white/ green /purple — a pig is a pig. “you’re saying that because I’m of a so and so shade” it’s a great excuse to use that to turn the tables against you. Statistics are still just studies. Don’t let colour alter your judgement. They all belong to the class that think street harassment is harmless, or that they’re entitled to it. You can identify them by their attitude. If you take colour into consideration you reduce the severity of the crime. You need to protect yourself, that’s all.
I don’t have much to offer in that area, I haven’t figured any fool-proof methods myself.
Oh crap. I’m sorry that happened to you.
As to how to stop it? I think it starts with doing exactly what you did. Whenever possible (when it’s safe), we need to turn around and call people on harrassing behaviours LOUDLY. And we need to do what the couple did. Help anyone who seems to be in a vulnerable position.
Glad you’re safe.
At least the police take this kind of thing more seriously than in the past.
http://feministing.com/archives/007244.html
http://www.racialicious.com/2007/06/29/catcalling-is-a-cross-cultural-annoyance/
tanglethis – thanks for your take on how to handle street harassment. I agree, it’s not our responsibility as women to stop this from happening. not at all. after all we’re not the ones doing anything wrong.
vintagefan – thanks for commenting. re: the colour of the harasser: I was thinking more along the lines of this. If the harasser was, say, black, would I have felt as comfortable reaming him out – or would I have felt like perhaps that was a bad idea, that maybe he would have a more violent response, maybe pull a gun or knife on me, that kind of thing? I felt pretty secure in rounding on that guy last night, for whatever reason… maybe because he was shorter than me, maybe because he was scrawnier than me, maybe because he was white, most likely partly because he was alone. but would I have felt the same way, been as quick to do what I did, if he was black, or latino? would I have seen such behaviour as threatening if it was coming from an asian man? an indian man?
just some questions that turned round in my head. I don’t know, but I wonder if racist stereotypes about men of colour as violent and aggressive (or in the case of asian men, as docile and polite – come to think of it I’ve never been hassled by an asian man in my life) would have changed my perception of the situation. I mean, I felt threatened, but not enough to prevent me from lashing out at the guy. would I have felt more threatened by a man of colour? it’s possible. I don’t know.
Sage – thanks. I agree, I think more people need to be aware of what’s going on with other people and more willing to step in and help out when people seem to be in trouble. and yeah, I think a ‘take back the night’ approach is useful for sure, telling people off for harassing us – and for harassing others, even. it’s not okay to harass women in the street, whether it’s me or someone else.
donna darko – thanks for those links! those were exactly the ones I was thinking of.
I get what you’re saying, you might have to rely own your knowledge of racial stereotypes because you have very little time to think about what to do, esp. in your particular case. I’ve come across big guys who are really mild, teeny ones who are pretty uppity. It totally varies how they react to rejection. As for the numbers, I don’t think they’re going to be shamed into bettering themselves if they hear that the reputation of their race precedes them. They’re just having too much fun.
“would I have felt more threatened by a man of colour? it’s possible. I don’t know.”
You might, but may be also because they’re projected (or projected themselves) that way in news/movies for so long before this it might have just embedded itself in your subconscious. When you’re alone, late at night, deserted street or otherwise, no place in the world is completely safe. I’ve been harassed on the streets since I was a teen and I’ve learned to be a reader of body language or just general vibes so I don’t always have to rely completely on what you mentioned. I have no advice to offer in that area except it takes a while for you to be able to tell the difference. Which is terrible because it means practice makes perfect. But I know this —silence is usually seen as acceptance. So yell away and make a scene. You can’t get arrested for yelling. Fuck their feelings. And wear sensible shoes.
yes, this is exactly right, jsut what I was trying to get at:
ah yes, sensible shoes. I think, honestly, that my choice of footwear last night (beautiful high heel stilettos) combined with my choice of outerwear (a beautiful mid-length white trench that glowed in the light of the streetlamps) was likely what made the guy cross the street. And I knew as soon as I saw him what was going to happen. reading body language is a very good point.
But the behaviour /dress modification business really pisses me off. Like a girl who was a victim of a very brutal attack said to me once, she’d feel free the day women can walk naked down the street one and no one would bother them.
(OR clothed, actually.)
yes, I feel the same, which is why I refuse to do it. I like wearing nice clothes, beautiful shoes, doing my makeup and hair nicely. I like walking down the street at my own pace, looking people in the eye, smiling at someone if I feel like it. It’s not my problem that some asshat takes these simple things as cause to approach and harass me. it’s an entitlement mentality on their part, that no matter what I am doing, how I am dressed, how I have arranged my hair, I am there for them, to serve them, to be an object for their observational pleasure, to be something they can touch if they want to or talk to or demand something from, and that they are entitled to all of that from me. which is ridiculous, of course.
Well, I’m forty, I wear sensible shoes, a ponytail, no makeup and old jeans and it STILL happens to me. Last month I had a nineteen year old guy start chatting to me on the train one night -for some reason he interpreted polite responses to his conversation as an invitation to jump me.
He was dumbstruck that I didnt find his attention flattering.
Hi, Rose!–I said ‘ wear sensible shoes’ so that you can make a quick getaway in case of an emergency. I like pretty high heeled shoes too, I’ve just think they’re made for steel reinforced ankles and I’ve never been able to wear them. Just wanted to clarify that. Peace.
I have to say that since moving toward a genderless image over the last 6 or 7 years, I have far less of that sort of trouble. That’s just my personal experience.
I support women in their choice of attire, whatever it might be, and I don’t consider anything an excuse for men to treat us the way this knobhead has treated you. I don’t care if you’re walking down the street in a bikini, it’s never ok.
But I learned the hard way, that it’s sometimes good to deal with the world as it is, not as we’d like it to be. And that as women we must be on our guard and we must do everything we can to empower ourselves and other women.
To me that meant letting go of the accepted male-constructed “female” image, and finding more meaningful ways to enjoy my femaleness. I can’t even describe the sense of freedom I found through wearing neutral or “male” clothing, cutting my hair and nails short, wearing practical shoes etc. I find it so much easier to move about the world as a person first, and a female person second.
I also think it’s important to be fit, be strong, work out, learn to box etc. Anything that makes us feel less vulnerable. Learn new body language, be relaxed, raise your chin, look them in the eye, acknowledge them the same way that they acknowledge each other. They pick up on that and they don’t immediately see you as a target if you don’t act like you know you’re a target.
My views may seem a bit radical; oh well.
Thinking Girl
You are right this is not your responsibility but it is dropped in your lap.
I am a man but I have been through the Physical Violence side of it. I have been a soft target before. Single member of a foreign sometimes despised racial group. This can make you have the same reflexes you have experienced. You feel partially violated without any act having ever been committed. You have been threatend in a way. Somone wanted to curtail your freedom in someway in this case your freedom to choose who to associate with.
One way I got past the emotional impact was to develop a soldiers attitude. “you may do something to me but I will stand my ground and make you pay the highest price possible” It does not make it go away entirely but it does give you a better feeling of right, and feeling of at least full equality to be wherever you choose.
and I hate that. I hate that I couldn’t walk the literally three and a half minutes to my door from the streetcar stop without being harassed. I hate that I felt afraid of a guy who I probably had 20 pounds and 5 inches on. I hate that I had a couple walk me to my door. I hate that if I had been dressed differently, it probably wouldn’t have happened. I hate that I actually felt bad about using the pizza place as a refuge and bringing that confrontation into their place of business. I hate being viewed as public property by some random asshat in the street. and I hate that this happens every day to billions of women all over the world, to varying degrees of severity. I HATE IT.
amen. and way to hollaback – that was brave of you.
sometimes the optimist in me thinks that a lot of men just don’t have a grasp on how common this actually is – my boyfriend was flabbergasted when it came up, and my friends and i started swapping anecdotes. that’s privilege right – they don’t have to think about it, so they don’t. but a lot of the time i don’t that’s malice, just ignorance.
however, then you run into guys like the one you describe, and my pessimism kicks in again! well that, and the threads on “male-bashing” at my site that made me realize some of the most liberal men can be the most knee-jerk reactionaries when it comes to being categorized.
Perhaps if you carry an obviously armed and real shoulder-launched rocket launcher with you down the street, people will be less inclined to bother you.
I know, I know. Those are expensive. I can’t afford one myself. Which was too bad, given the time I was riding my bike down the street and some men stopped me and stood in front of my bike and harrassed me, threatening me with various forms of bodily harm, for the crime of being outside by myself and looking vulnerable.
I would have loved to use that rocket launcher on them. As it was, I was lucky I managed to get my front tire free and started pedaling as fast as I could (they were on foot) and got away.
Of course, that didn’t help later, when I was walking through the park and was jumped by a whole different set of guys, who held me down in the grass and assaulted me for the crime of walking in the park by myself and looking vulnerable. I managed to get loose and run away before any serious harm was done. I also never walked in that park by myself again.
Some people are assholes who prey on those they think are vulnerable. I wonder if the same minority of loud assholes who do things like what you described are the ones who assaulted me.
Disgusted Beyond Belief,
I’m a little lost here. You’re being sarcastic right? If you are then you’re trivializing a serious problem, and it’s not remotely funny.
If you’re not, then sorry.
“I hate that if I had been dressed differently, it probably wouldn’t have happened.”
No, you’re just female. That’s enough. Believe me, I’ve been harrassed like that while wearing a turtleneck and baggy wool pants.
“I’m a little lost here. You’re being sarcastic right? If you are then you’re trivializing a serious problem, and it’s not remotely funny.”
I didn’t read it that way at all.
Everyone has their own way of dealing with this stuff.
thanks all.
yes, DBB – it would be helpful if you clarified. because I read your comment as either purposely trivializing my experience and the experience of other victims of sexual street harassment, or otherwise effectively doing the same thing by making it all about you.
kate.d. – thanks. yes to what you said about some liberal men being reactionary. In fact, I’d say many liberal people are pretty self-congratulatory a bit too soon, and think holding a certain intellectual POV or doing certain kinds of work or having certain kinds of friends is enough to make them immune to criticism.
femsoc66 – on more gender-neutral appearances: see, the thing is for me, while there might be a certain level of comfort or freedom or whatever associated with leaving the trappings of femininity behind, ultimately I don’t think it’s helpful. for me, it’s better to challenge sexist stereotypes around femininity, because there’s nothing wrong with femininity. what’s wrong is assigning lower social value to femininity and those people associated with femininity.
which is kind of why Steve‘s comment felt a little more comfortable to me. I feel ya dude! and essentially, that’s exactly why I rounded on that guy. I simply was not going to allow him to intimidate me.
Ginger – yeah, me too. the only thing about my dress that I felt made me perhaps more of a target for this was the colour of my trench coat – white. reflects the moonlight and all. eaiser to see in the dark.
rose – I know. entitlement mentality. like we’re so lucky to be blessed with whatever attention they are willing to give.
I think DBB’s point, which seems to be his usual point whenever I’ve read his comments here, is that everybody’s got problems. So if you’re a women your problems have nothing to do with the fact of your womanhood and the history of how it has been characterized; if you’re black your problems have nothing to do with the fact of your skin color and the history of racial oppression in the United States; etc.
Actually, I apologize for making a gross general statement about someone else’s views, but it is a pattern, so I’m not taking it back.
Anyway, it is true that both women and men can be targets of random harassment and violence. That doesn’t make it less true that women are frequently targeted for being women. And while the sorts of people who attack people of either sex for money or love of violence will probably do so no matter what… the sorts of men who follow me or TG home, who feel free to touch my body when I’m in a crowded space and can’t see who’s doing it, who call out degrading female names or primally scream at me while I’m out in the world? They wouldn’t do that if we didn’t live in a culture that both demands and debases femininity, and generally encourages young men to think of women as playthings.
“the only thing about my dress that I felt made me perhaps more of a target for this was the colour of my trench coat – white. reflects the moonlight and all. eaiser to see in the dark.”
Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? The assumption that women are only safe if they’re not seen at all. Of course, that idea was test-driven in the middle east, and we all know how effective the burqua is at deflecting sexual violence…
You know, something reminded me of this song…
Anyway… the guy doesn’t seem likely to be Axe Crazy but he’s still being creepy. Sad to say, I’ve been “that creepy guy” a few times; I’m not proud of it, but I was. How not to be a creep without also becoming a recluse is something that people have to learn and many just aren’t being taught. To a sufficiently naive individual, giving people compliments seems like doing something nice for them (which implies that they ought to be pleased when you do it), but that’s far from an accurate assessment of how compliments to random female strangers are actually perceived.
Of course, if you’re being creepy and you DO know better, or if you’re being willfully ignorant, then I have no sympathy whatsoever. That’s not a case of ordinary empathy failure, that’s doing evil.
Well, thinking girl I’m glad you walked into a business establishment to ask for help. That was very wise.
Sometimes idiotic men feel like it’s their place to tell you how they feel to verbalize their unwanted comments, because their just that stupid and don’t realize maybe you just don’t care to hear what they have to say.
When I first moved to California, I didn’t have a car so I took the bus to work everyday. I usually had to leave quite early because I had to be at work by 7:00am. Most of the time it was still kinda dark outside when I’d walk the 3 blocks to the bus stop. There was this guy who delivered magazines or newspapers I wasn’t quite sure, and at first it started off with whistling. I ignored him like I didn’t hear him. After a couple of weeks of this, he must have gotten up more nerve then started making snide comments, and I still pretended not to hear him. I think this pissed him off because he started driving up the street slowly following me. I called the police who told me they couldn’t do anything because he hadn’t done anything illegal. Yeah right! I was so scared by this time but I couldn’t afford to loose my job, I had to continue walking to the bus stop. Well the slowly following me lead to him following the bus till I got off my stop. I called the police again, and they said the same old shit…
I started to walk to a different bus stop, but it took me an additional 20 minutes to get to work because it was a different bus line. I thought that this had cured the problem, but now I started getting dead flowers on my doorstep along with graphic nude photographs attached to them. I finally had to move.
It may start as a small comment, but the scary thing is you have no idea what some people are capable of, which to me is so freaking scary. Next time you should walk into the business and you should call the police. I’m not trying to scare you but that guy could have a history of following women, or who knows what. What if you perhaps see him again? At least that if it’s documented than the police may be able to arrest him for following you (if he ever did that again!) Which I pray he doesn’t!!!
(Just jumping in real quick — I read DBB’s comment as neither “let’s make it all about me” nor as something trivialising. What she said is more in line with how I wish I could deal with things like street harassment and sexism in general: with a really huge space blaster, or possibly a katana. Now I realise it’s neither possible (or in the case of a katana, legal) to carry such a weapon around, but it’d make me feel a hell of a lot better. And I’d jump for that kind of solution because generally harassment just leaves me numb and dumb, with a kind of “buh wha?” disjointedness that lends itself to neither education nor self-defense — but may lead to a blog post later when my thoughts are more collected. Basically I deal with the reality of the situation by escaping into hyperbolic fantasy once the moment is past — and that’s how I felt DBB was ‘dealing’ too.)
As for what we can do about street harassment (until I can have my space blaster, anyway) — well, there’s sites like hollaback. Basically raising awareness and educating people are the two things that come to my mind. Men, specifically, since they tend to be the harassers, and I know most of them don’t see it as such a big deal. We need to get rid of the mentality that “it’s a compliment, don’t be so uptight” so people, men and women, take it seriously. We need to give young men, especially boys as they grow into adolescence, a bigger picture of masculinity that isn’t just about being in opposition to and dominant over women.
Sharing stories like this helps, I think, because it does help raise awareness and it gives other people a chance to share similar stories (like DBB’s). People who’ve been lucky enough to never experience harassment have the opportunity to know what it feels like to be a victim, second-hand, which might make them think twice about how they’d react if it was their mother/sister/partner/themselves and what they’d want done about it.
this isn’t totally related to your post but i just wanted to say two things:
1.) i’m soooo glad you are safe and that you knew what to do. i’m pretty sure i would have just ran home; going to the pizza store was the right thing to do. no wonder your sn is thinking girl!
2.) again off topic— independence for me as a disabled person is realistically tied to being able to ask strangers for help if i ever need it. that sounds stereotypical (the image of the “helpless crip”) but i’d rather be able to occasionally ask a person to walk a corner with me or open a door than stay inside. i think this is where interdependence really comes in… i understand your feelings of hate to do those things but i believe that the couple and pizza place was able to help you and you will in turn help other people in various forms.
but that could be basked in privilege? the idea that people are there to help you may not be fair, even if you do tell yourself that you’d do the same (like me)…
(Apparently I have an earlier comment currently held in moderation because it has some links.)
You said it. I think the time that you need to give “how not to be an asshole” classes is probably around 7th/8th grade… and many people that age really do need to be taught how to behave by influences that don’t correspond with the worst of popular culture.
Oddly enough, I’ve modeled my own sense of masculinity more on Steve Urkel than on James Bond. 😉
My mistake, I thought DDB was trying to illustrate a point by giving an exaggerated example, esp. with the ‘for the crime of being outside by myself and looking vulnerable.’ bit. I’ve had people use similar tactics to make me look whiny, so I got suspicious. Sorry again.
TG> Good for you for using some street smarts with that prick. I’d have to say that the police would treat that type of thing very seriously, given the potential for violence in that situation. There’s no shame in dialing 911 as it goes on — and conveniently saying your location out loud while you’re walking — just to have the drop on the guy. As for others helping, I’d not bank on it. Having been in trouble myself while in uniform — I certainly cannot rely on the ‘group think’ mentality to protect myself. That is why in ‘street safe’ classes, women are sadly told to yell “Fire!” instead of ‘Help!”.
What you described is I feel very similar to what DBB was talking about — I think everyone in missed the point in DBB’s message. What is similar is that both you and DBB were walking alone when someone or some people decided to take advantage of the situation. Walking alone at night presents risks for anyone in an inner city environment — whether male or female — and its sad that our cities have become such places.
Is there a solution or a good way to avoid these incidents? I think you did great. Beyond what you did, I would only tell people to use ‘when then thinking’ — WHEN, this happens to me, I’ll respond this way (rather than if) — that way, you’re prepared and running strategies in your mind well beforehand so any good reaction becomes instinctive and instant.
femsoc66 –
I AM fit… and not so small either – 5’6″. And yet when a man grabs me, it always becomes very evident very quickly that there is no way in the world I am going to be able to physically do a huge amount about it. I think both genders forget this sometimes… because in many environments it isn’t an issue- we use our brains rather than our muscles.
I’m lucky in that every time its happened to me, I’ve talked my way out of it. The nineteen year old responded very well to being told that I didnt find teenagers or children remotely attractive… Suddenly he was a bit unsure of himself and that gave me an option to walk huffily away. (and I was so grateful my pounding heart didnt show on my face.)
Plenty of men are acutely sensitive to how a woman walking alone on a dark street at night feels- they can see the difference between bailing someone up in the dark and giving someone a smile and compliment in a neutral environment! Its not rocket science. Being followed is bad enough. Being chased and called out to at 1.30 am????????? That’s a compliment?
hahaha Vintage fan – I realise you meant in order to run away! but at the moment I lead a ‘sensible life’ – AND I have no car. So the sensible shoes are for sensible walking. Or running. Or because there is no way I could carry my youngest and the shopping in high heels…………..
I’m not trivializing anything. I resent the implication. I did NOT ask to be assaulted and did NOT enjoy the experience and I do not go out alone at night because of it. And how is sharing my own experiences with being assaulted on the street for walking alone making it “all about me”? Others shared their own experiences in this thread, why could I not share mine? Or are they privileged in some way, allowing them to do so without such an accusation?
“femsoc66 – on more gender-neutral appearances: see, the thing is for me, while there might be a certain level of comfort or freedom or whatever associated with leaving the trappings of femininity behind, ultimately I don’t think it’s helpful. for me, it’s better to challenge sexist stereotypes around femininity, because there’s nothing wrong with femininity. what’s wrong is assigning lower social value to femininity and those people associated with femininity. ”
I’m sorry if I stepped on a nerve, but I genuinely felt my thoughts would add a perspective that some might find relevant.
You talk about challenging the stereotype. Well, I believe that the modern “femininity” we’re all conditioned to embrace *is* a stereotype, and a male-constructed one that is designed to keep us disempowered.
No better way to challenge it than to reject it completely.
Being female is about so much more than high heels and long eyelashes.
I’d like to see us all promoting real femaleness instead of this false thing that men have decided we need to live up to.
well, DBB, chalk it up to the experiences I and others have already had with you on numerous threads where you have done exactly what tanglethis has described. And, ultimately, this is a thread about sexual street harassment, which is rooted in gendered power imbalances. Not to trivialize your experience, but there are different things going on with both our encounters. The others who have shared have been sharing experiences that mirror mine much more closely. This isn’t a thread about general violence or threats of violence, but about a specific kind of threat of violence that is pretty well part of being female.
TTB – thanks for your comment. glad to hear a copper approves of how I handled the situation, and that you think dialing 911 would actually get me taken seriously.
femsoc66– you didn’t hit a nerve at all. and I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying. but I think there’s more than one way to empowerment, and it is possible to be feminine and feminist, to challenge male domination while looking however I want to look. the debate about this issue has been completely polarized, and when you look at one of the most powerful and influential feminists in the history of feminism, Gloria Steinem, you see that things can still be done to achieve female empowerment while wearing lipstick.
what’s “real” femaleness, anyway?
“what’s “real” femaleness, anyway?”
It’s you as you are, as opposed to the artificially constructed media image of womanhood that we’re confronted with every day. You must realise that it’s men who define that image? There’re reasons they keep that image going.
I went by DDB’s earlier comments too on other posts and that is why I felt his comments had a tendency to dilute the severity of the issue at hand, which is specifically relate to being female and of the harassment being of the sexual kind. It wasn’t exactly a fair thing to do and I might have read too much into his first comment because of his earlier ones, and of course the previous reason that I gave.
And, sorry for the third time.
I’m so interested in the sort of subtheme between TG and femsoc that I kind of wish “what is ‘real’ femaleness?” had its own thread.
Ideas about what femininity looks like (y’know, lipstick and heels and all that) are stereotypical, only arbitrarily connected to femaleness, and totally policed by patriarchal myths – you’re quite right about that, femsoc. But I also think that the informed decision to take on some of those characteristics and challenge the stereotype by being lipsticked *and* smart (TG’s idea) is totally valid. The total rejection/reaction to patriarchy is not necessarily a more liberated choice… I learned that the hard way with my sexuality. I said (figuratively): I’m sick of being treated like an object by men. I’ll treat men like objects for awhile and see how they like it! And I became aggressive and rejected emotional connections to men. But that was no more natural or true to my self than being objectified by men was… and it was still a backassward way of being defined by men.
I should add: rejection is not always the more liberating choice, but sometimes it is. There. Bases covered.
femsoc – I have a problem with labelling anything as “real” or “natural.” considering that one of the principle ways we define humans is that we use technology, it seems like aligning “real” and “natural” is troubling.
one of the major problems I have with gender-neutrality is how similar is it to masculinity, taken as the norm or standard. Feminism is not about making women into men. I certainly don’t want to dichotomize or polarize the discussion, as has far too often been the case in the fembot discussions amongst radfems and sexpos’s, but it seems like the lack of a substantive alternative to femininity/masculinity does just that. I’m not sure that a woman “free” from the trappings of femininity is any more “real” or less “artificial” than a woman who partakes in femininity practices to varying degrees. In fact, I question how “free” any choice under patriarchy really is: I certainly don’t think that your choices are any less constrained by patriarchy then are mine, just because you reject femininity and I do not. It jsut means that you’ve chosen to react to those dictates in a different way. “choosing” to abandon femininity practices doesn’t free you from patriarchy’s definitions of womanhood. In fact, I think it’s kind of a constructed choice, and a false freedom.
true freedom to choose only comes from having a wide range of available and accessible and valid and accepted options, any of which could be chosen without the chooser being subject to discrimination. And for that, we need women who reject femininity AND women who embrace it, both of which groups retain some sense of solidarity and neither of which look down on the other or undermine their choices. I don’t find it particularly helpful to make a simple rejection/condemnation of femininity, because I think it leaves a lot of women hanging out in the wind. and quite frankly, it’s just not that simple.
“Feminism is not about making women into men.”
Totally agree, and that wasn’t was I was trying to say. We had enough of that stuff in the eighties, what with shoulder-padded suit jackets and going to Chippendales shows and such. That truly was a false freedom; underneath the suits we were wearing suspender belts and stockings.
I was not in any way advocating that all women do as I do and they will magically be free. ( I did say that I support women in whatever they choose to wear)
I was also not rejecting or condemning *femininity*. I’m just questioning the definition of femininity.
Just because I reject “man’s femininity” doesn’t mean I reject femininity.
Ironically, dressing as a boy seems to have only highlighted my femaleness, through contrast. So no, it’s not about resembling masculinity for me, it’s also not about living up to male expectations of femininity, it’s about the freedom to define myself.
I think it’s especially tough for all of us women who have a heightened awareness of patriarchy and male privilege, and it’s understandable that we would naturally develop strategies to deal with it in the moment. This is just one of my strategies. I feel like I’m sending an immediate message to every man that I come in contact with; and that message is “I don’t consider it important to cater to your tastes and interests”.
This is something I revel in believe it or not. It’s my way of assuming privilege.
And I wouldn’t criticise women who still dress femmy because I’ve been there and I recognise that not everyone is on the page I’m on now.
But it has been something that’s especially meaningful for me, and I took the opportunity to voice my thoughts just in the hopes that it could inspire people, even a little bit.
How INCREDIBLY INFURIATING!
Ditto on all the commenters who have told you that what you wore was not the issue: his idiotic behavior was the issue here. Nobody has the right to intimidate someone like that on the street, and then to claim that it’s just a compliment. Like he’s the big victim.
I hate street harassment. At the same time these men really have no idea it is street harassment. These issues are very real to us females it is naive to think men do not realize this is street harassment in reality it is.
You were scared and instinctively you gave him a piece of your mind; that i understand. Instead of yelling at him at a public place you should of had a normal conversation with him. From my experience yelling at someone will never fix the situation because they will not believe you or just believe it is a rarity. You have to sit down explain it to him that it is street harassment. Imagine if you were the women and what would your impressions be?
It is sad but you gotta start from one man, and eventually every man will know. It is street harassment and approaching from the behind is always bad.
A guy approached you while you were alone at 1:30 in the morning? haha… It sounds like a traditional rape scenario like you’d see in the most generic movie ever.
I’d be afraid of getting robbed and murdered. I’d go into the pizza place, and it was a good move.
I admit it was the wrong context to approach you if he was genuine with the compliment, but a man approaching a woman with a generic compliment isn’t harassment. It’s kind of tacky and unoriginal, but not harassment. It should be flattering, not intimidating. Yet in that context, it would be intimidating to most women.
The guy who approached you may have thought of the approach this way,”I’ll never see this girl again in my life, I know it’s late, I know she is alone, but if I don’t say something, it’s over anyway.” So he tried it, and he got the result that most men would get in that situation.
Then again, he could have been Ted Bundy incarnate.
I think he knew perfectly well the power dynamic under which he was operating. I’ll give you a big hint, it starts with a P.
You owe him nothing. You do not owe him an explanation. You do not owe him your time. He owes YOU an APOLOGY.
MEN can take the time to teach other MEN about non-oppressing behavior.
BOG I am on a feminazi streak today!
Penis?
“I admit it was the wrong context to approach you if he was genuine with the compliment, but a man approaching a woman with a generic compliment isn’t harassment. It’s kind of tacky and unoriginal, but not harassment. It should be flattering, not intimidating. Yet in that context, it would be intimidating to most women.”
Mate, your arrogance just almost caused me to choke on my beer. So you think she was just a little bit spooked and didn’t realise the huge compliment he was paying her? Didn’t realise how very special she should have felt?
These silly women eh? Don’t recognise a good bloke when they see one.
Pah!
Your assumption that this kind of attention is flattering to us is the crux of the whole bloody issue.
It is NOT complimentary or flattering to be loudly appraised in the street, like a piece of show -quality livestock.
In no context can this behaviour be seen as anything but harrassment. Doesn’t matter the time of day or night, the number of people present, it’s always harrassment, it’s always oppressive and absolutely stinks of male privilege.
Bit like the tone of your post.
Mmmmk… Harrassment is a big word for you, especially with that extra R in there. haha..
You’ll have to develop the skills to discern the difference between a genuine compliment and street harassment. Street harassment can be an ambiguous subject, and a lot of behaviors and men are automatically clumped into the street harassment category by means of rash automatic responses or stereotypes.
Compliments are good, they should be good, and rewarded. I’m not referring to cat-callers, guys that touch women, guys that make sexual advances, and follow women. There is a certain etiquette a man must follow in order to compliment a woman with the utmost efficiency in a street setting. Otherwise, she’ll quickly label him as a street harasser that makes her uncomfortable and triggers her flight or fight response.
As a man, you can approach women in the street and use compliments and women will be flattered, that is possible. It also depends on the woman, if she isn’t a feminist, she may be more likely to positively respond to a compliment.
Feminists, at least the ones I see here, tend to see a hostile world where some select men are objectifying women, harassing them, and always consciously or unconsciously imposing their power over women in the name of the patriarchy.
As of now, has there been any substantial legislation passed to support the feminists view of street harassment? Is it too ambiguous or is the patriarch oppressing women once again?
“Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” This is one of those situations where this quote can do more harm than good. A lot of men wouldn’t mind being street harassed by women.
And the next time I say hello to you with a smile, say you’re beautiful, and it’s on the street, don’t call me a street harasser. Remember to reinforce good behavior whenever possible, don’t act or think rashly, stop looking at the world and men on the street as hostile monsters out to get you.
don’t act or think rashly, stop looking at the world and men on the street as hostile monsters out to get you.
The problem with this is that we can’t win. If we treat men like reasonable human beings who aren’t out to hurt us, and we wind up getting hurt (assaulted, raped, etc.), people will ask, “Well what were you doing out at that time of night/in that outfit/at that bar/with that guy?” If we treat them with suspicion, they whine that we’re being unfair. Given the choices, I’d rather be safe than sorry.
Yes, there’s a way to compliment women — even on the street — without coming off as harassing or creepy, or whatever. It’s tricky, though, because even the act of paying a compliment carries with it a weird kind of entitlement, like, you just had to tell me what you thought of me/my outfit/my ass, as though I could/should/do care. In my experience, the only way to do this without being creepy as all hell is to approach with a clear line of sight and open body language, to ask if it’s all right to approach within speaking distance, to offer your compliment (“You look radiant,” etc.), and then to immediately back off.
But again, all women will react differently; my past is relatively untainted, but unforunately the same can’t be said for others, and it’s really quite rude of you to dismiss their histories without at least trying to have some kind of sympathy for where they’re coming from when they treat men on the street and their ubiquitous compliments with suspicion.
yeah, I’ve pretty much had enough of MEN telling me how I should react to being sexually harassed in the street BY A MAN. Sorry, but you don’t get to define what is or is not street harassment, you know? like white people don’t get to define what is or is not racism.
golden rule my ASS. ever heard of the PLATINUM RULE? Treat others not how you want to be treated, but how THEY want to be treated? but oh no, I guess that would mean stepping outside yourself for a millisecond to actually figure out what someone else values, desires, expects.
that guy wanted nothing to do with giving me a compliment and everything to do with intimidating me and displaying his male dominance. well guess what? i’m not going to play that game with him. not a chance.
treating me like an idiot who doesn’t know when or how to take a compliment from someone who is being genuine about offering it in a non-threatening way is definitely not the correct response. FUCK YOU. Street harassment is a fact of life for many women. I get to decide what is threatening to me, what is intimidating to me. I DECIDE. and, I also get to decide how to deal with it. I don’t need male approval for my appearance, the way I walk, what I’m wearing, how I apply my makeup, how I carry myself. I also don’t need male approval for how I choose to deal with misogyny in my life.
Thansk to femsoc, Rainbow Girl, and baby221. spot on.
Marko – banned.
Marko, that’s just silly… actually, it’s just dumb.
“You have to develop the skills to discern the difference between a genuine compliment and street harassment.”
Why? Why the fuck do I have to? And, perhaps more importantly, why are you assuming that a knee-jerk fear or anger response is due to some kind of lack of skill or competance on my part? I tell you what… I walk everywhere, and I have heard and seen a lot. I believe I can tell the difference between a friendly call-out and a potentially hostile situation. It’s pure intuition, though. So far it has kept my life and my person safe, but there is frequently no empirical difference between the “Hey beautiful!” that won’t mind being ignored* and the one that quickly turns into “Hey! HEY! FUCK YOU I’M TALKING TO YOU BITCH!”
So “skill” is bullshit. Hostility can be anywhere. The fact that you don’t see this suggests to me that it’s something you don’t have to live with, but I do.
And regardless, within the context of men seeing women walking alone on the street, the man who compliments for kindness and the man who compliments to dominate are coming from the exact same sense of entitlement: “I see you, I want you to see me. Look at me looking at you. Your body is on display for me, so I will call your attention to it.” It’s just that the latter man takes the privilege one step further: “Be grateful, or suck it.”
*And everyone who calls out to me this way IS ignored. And they should be. Compliment or not, I didn’t ask for it, I have no obligation to be grateful for it or acknowledge it. If you find that rude, I find the initial statement a crude and entitled intrusion on my personal space. Believe it or nor, when I walk I’m usually thinking… why would I want to stop for a conversation that has nothing to do with what’s inside my head?
Fuck yeah, Thinking Girl! I may publish parts of that comment on my blog, for the sheer moxie of it in addition to the fact that you’re right.
” It’s tricky, though, because even the act of paying a compliment carries with it a weird kind of entitlement, like, you just had to tell me what you thought of me/my outfit/my ass, as though I could/should/do care.”
That’s it. That’s the sentiment in his tone that I was struggling to identify. The “I am entitled to compliment you whether you like it or not” attitude.
The assumption by men that “compliments” are a valid part of male/female relations is offensive and condescending and has a “scraps from the table” kind of feel to it.
They can shove their compliments up their privileged arses.
I’m glad you banned the idiot TG, I would have wasted valuable minutes of my life shooting him down, otherwise.
thankss ladies.
I think I feel a new post coming on… it’s been simmering for a while now…
holding your hand is not my fucking job
oh, and Misha? fuck you. your comment is so fucking stupid and condescending I’m not even going to publish it. did you even read this post? if so, you’ll know exactly why I was pissed off, and being so “negative”.
asshole.
I was thinking more about this thing today. This whole compliment thing, they’re not real compliments anyway.
A real compliment is when your boss shows appreciation of your skills or talents. Or when someone you know acknowledges one of your greater qualities or strengths.
That’s complimentary.
This business of yelling out on the street is a) false, because they don’t even know you, and b) designed only for one purpose. The single purpose of eventually getting into your pants.
It’s contrived and manipulative and if that isn’t bad enough, then they have the hide to be all affronted and wounded when we object, as if their motives were pure all along.
yeah, femsoc, I agree. I take compliments seriously when they come from someone I know and trust and admire, like friends or coworkers. Not strange men in the street. Compliment my ass.
I would argue that there is another purpose, however – one that has to do with displaying power and privilege, puffing themselves up like peacocks, look at me, I’m so important that you should be pleased I have chosen to appraise and approve of you. It’s posturing, you’re absolutely right. A comment that I didn’t approve on this post made note that street harassment was a way for men to get back at women for women’s liberation – backlash. (He didn’t seem to see much problem with it, however.) It’s all about cutting us down to size, reminding us in plain terms that we do not have as much freedom as we demand, that we can’t even walk down the street with freedom of movement without being reminded of the gendered imbalance of power in our society.
I hate it too.
I must say as a male (i’m 25 but would rather call myself a boy). I really hate living in this time period… I am absolutly humilaited constantly by the atrociosness of the man’s behavior…
If I were you. I would worship and learn Kung Fu, and there really is no reason next time if that ever happens again. To simply attack the guy.
I would suggest not using any deception but simply turning suddenly and then when he is in the middle of those pretentious compliments hit him before he knows what happened. Then leave quicky…
learn how to use his energy against him.
That sort of behavior is obviously hostile.
If a man (or woman) started walking down the street shouting at me… really anything I would consider him hostile and dangerous.
And so would any other animal of the planet.
And humans are animals so…
Animals are set of by much less, and what happened to you
is very very very agressive and threatning.
But on a city street things just work differently than they do in nature…
I suggest zero tolerance for such things… ZERO.
Just let you instinct move you. When animals are in danger, they either attack or retreat, they do not stick around, they move respond and keep moving. I suggest letting the situation move you. At least you verbally defended yourself…
But then your giving in to his facade his game his illusion…. So…
I suggest saying nothing, but not doing nothing.
Communicate with body language only, Because HIS body language is the problem. His body language is the language of a predator. Therefore that is the threat you must respond to. Be creative. Be spontaneous.
Frankly he may of gotten a kick out of doing that to you.
Kick back.
my 2 cents…
OK,
I mean I suppose thats a pretty extreme reaction but… hey… thats how I feel about it. I guess i’m just making a point…
I don’t advocate hurting people.
2 more cents…
PS. I hope by adding my email I don’t get spammed, if maybe it isn’t too much trouble I would ask you delete the email above and insert this one becuase this is my spamming account…
thx… =)
“A comment that I didn’t approve on this post made note that street harassment was a way for men to get back at women for women’s liberation – backlash. ”
I agree with that, it’s definitely a part of it. Since the 70s when things like sex discrimination were legislated for, men have had to crank up the oppression a notch or two, and street harassment/sexual harassment at work are all about that.
There are a lot of men out there still sulking about “women’s lib”.
You know what.
Some of you may want to know how frustrating it is to be male.
I’m not saying what this guy did was right.
But suggesting that you may notice that as a male one is never going to find somone if they sit around and wait quietly. Males have to be outgoing. Sometimes that outgoing kindness changes into agressiveness, and you have what you see here. A inappropirate situation.
There is not always a clear and thick boundry between outgoing kindness and agressiveness.
Maybe we can all forgive that guy. He didn’t call you names, or actually do anything intentionally mean. It was just crude.
It’s not easy. It’s not simple and sometimes people make mistakes. It doesn’t mean these men are plotting against you.
Well, -my- partner sat around on his butt until I damn near dragged him into bed. And we’ve been together nearly three years now. I know an anecdote data does not make, but yeah, it is possible, as a man, to be found attractive enough by a woman without being even assertive.
Also: there is a rather definite boundary between being outgoing and being aggressive (namely, that being “outgoing” doesn’t inspire women to rant angrily about men like you on the internet). If you can’t see it, maybe you should ask some of the women in your life how it reads to them. I’ve known more than one guy to be shocked, absolutely shocked, that the behaviour he thought was genial and sweet actually came across as creepy and aggressive.
ZTM, I agree that it is often frustrating to be male. You guys certainly don’t have a lot of role models to teach you how to teach women like human beings. It’s something that you have to learn as you go.
But men are certainly accountable for that learning. And while the boundary between kindness and aggressiveness might not be clear, it’s very present… and thick, too!
In this particular instance, the motive had nothing to do with the frank if misguided desire to meet women that you describe. It was intimidation, pure and simple.
But for fun, let’s suppose this same scene took place in a bar. TG is having a beer and thinking, cause she’s Thinking Girl and all. A strange man walks up and says “Hey beautiful.” TG ignores him. He comes closer and says “Hey, I said hey! I just wanna talk!” The rest of the scene continues as above, with the man being persistently aggressive and TG rounding on him for the presumption and privilege and whatnot.
Well, it’s the exactly same thing except that perhaps a man in a bar might begin the conversation wishing to make TG’s acquaintance. But it doesn’t matter. The facts remain the same: even if it’s acceptable to begin a conversation with a stranger in a bar, that conversation only takes place if both parties are willing. The aggression and frustration you describe stem from the same false ideology as the man on the street: that men deserve a woman’s attention whether she wants to give it or not.
That’s what’s really wrong here.
“Some of you may want to know how frustrating it is to be male.”
Nope.
I think I can empathise with all the frustrations of being male:
1) Uppity women won’t suck your dick for approval anymore.
2) The Sunday Night Fox Cartoon lineup always gets changed around.
Yeah, I’d trade that for constantly living under the shadow of sexual violence anyday.
ZTM – I’m pretty supportive of non-violence. but, I have considered taking some kind of class, like martial arts, in order to be mroe confident that I could take care of many situations that arose if need be, whether through verbal, intelligent, or physical means. However, ultimately, it isn’t about me being better able to protect myself, it’s about men stopping harassing women in the street and intimidating us and making us feel afraid. it’s not up to me to change my behaviour. it’s up to men like this guy to stop being asshats.
as for men having to be outgoing… well, I know plenty of women who don’t get dates because they are shy, or otherwise not outgoing, or just not outgoing in the “right” (read: sexyflirtypassivereceptive) way. it’s not all on men to be outgoing: women are expected to behave a certain way, too, to present ourselves as a certain kind of thing.
ok, that’s it for feminist teaching time.
thanks ladies for jumping in there to help me out.
I can tell you right now that martial arts is not going to help you. Men will almost ALWAYS be faster and stronger than you. I was a brown belt in karate when I was knifed by a man who, yes, started off by calling me beautiful and asking me to go home with him, then attacked me when I turned him down. My training should have allowed me to do more than just turn my back and get knifed on my back instead of the front, but he was so much faster than me that it wasn’t even funny. The impact of the knife made my entire back go numb, he was that strong.
I truly learned that night that I would have to do nothing but train and work out all day if I wanted to beat a man in a physical fight.
Now what I do, and what I suggest to ALL women, is to carry as many legal weapons as you possibly can at one time. Keep them in accessible places, practice pulling them out quickly and using them, and go through mental exercises imagining yourself using them and then running away. The most important thing is to remember to keep them accessible. An assailant is not going to wait for you to dig around in your bag for your pepper spray.
When I’m alone, night or day, I have my pepper spray in my hand. I never talk on the phone when I’m outside alone, for the same reason that I never put earphones in both ears or turn my music up too loud. (It distracts you and you won’t be able to hear someone coming up to you.)
I carry a folding knife as well, which I don’t recommend to people who aren’t fully prepared to disable their assailant with it, because otherwise your assailant can easily wrest it away from you and use it himself. (Although sometimes I think – if he’s already assaulting you, he’s going to assault you knife or no knife, and it’s going to be horrible anyway.) But when I’m walking somewhere alone at night, which I try to avoid doing, I’ve got out my knife fully extended in my right hand, with my arm sort of pulled up my sleeve so it doesn’t show, and my pepper spray in my left hand with my finger poised on the trigger.
I’m sorry this post is so long and I know I probably come across as ridiculously paranoid, but I have been harassed on the street, at the grocery store, at the gas station, everywhere, for years, and I have been assaulted twice in my life by the type of people who like to make you feel uncomfortable and make themselves feel powerful by harassing you. Good men, good people, don’t go up to random strangers on the street and “compliment” them on their physical appearance. They just don’t. The only people who do are those who are trying to get something for themselves out of YOU. And those people are a lot more dangerous than most people feel comfortable knowing about.
I think the complaint is that men’s roles (“outgoing”) are rigid, in that a man who does not engage in the performance of active masculinity in compulsory heterosexuality is going to remain permanently single unless he is genetically blessed with tremendous powers of attraction, whereas women’s deviation from the gender norm are less harshly punished, in that it is not the case that all courtship depends on a performative effort from her–whereas the dependence on male action is the default in compulsory heterosexuality, indeed, initiative and romantic assertiveness appear to be SELECTED FOR by women. Bear in mind that I am specifically thinking of size, disability, etc. as factors (that I have no small experience with) and that I dealt with a relatively diverse community. It may be that Nice Girls(tm) don’t self-report all over the op-ed pages.
M.Y. – thank you for sharing. I’m sorry for what happened to you. I hope you’re healing, in all the ways you need.
don’t worry, I don’t delude myself that martial arts would make it possible for me to kick the ass of every guy who wants to attack me. that’s the other reason I haven’t bothered to learn.
pepper spray, yes.
Eurosabra – alright, I’ll approve this comment.
I’ll tell you what. it’s been my personal preference to engage with men who are not particularly masculine, who don’t buy into the masculine ideal. why? well, in my experience, masculine men seek to dominate me. that’s not something I need in my personal life with friends and lovers. i certainly don’t think I’m the only woman who feels that way.
I think the system perpetuates itself. men who aren’t particularly masculine in that caricaturish way are discriminated against by other men who are more masculine, as well as women who have been brainwashed to think that they need a big strong guy to look after them. don’t just blame the women who “select for” masculintiy –it’s the SYSTEM of patriarchy that deserves to have that stinking pile of shit heaped at its feet.
by the way, I’ve known lots of guys who aren’t particularly masculine who do just fine with hetero relationships. I think mostly, it’s a matter of being comfortable with who you are and what you’re about.
I know a lot of those types of guys too, and they’re all in happy relationships (well on the surface they seem to be happy)
I’ve also found that it’s the guys who *don’t* fit that stereotypical macho image who are really cool about my own butch image.
It seems to only be the tough guys who feel threatened by my gender role deviation.
As for martial arts; no it’s not gonna make you all powerful (although in my imagination I see myself successfully kicking arse all the time) but it will make you feel more empowered.
As M.Y. says, martial arts training really isn’t all that helpful in a street fight. If you’re taken by surprise, there’ s a good chance the outcome of the fight will be determined by the first blow. Fighting in real life isn’t like fighting on TV – it’s very possible to kill or seriously injure someone with just one good, solid punch. If a weapon is involved, things just get worse.
[…] oh! Thinking girl has one too. I might start collecting 1st person narratives of other peoples problems, too. That could be fun. […]
Wow. I just wanted to say I’m sorry for all of you who have experienced this disgusting practice of street harrassment. I live in a small town, rural area so there isn’t as much anonymity when it comes to this kinda thing, which is why I think it’s not really a problem where I live. However, I still have a fear of this same thing happening to me. Isn’t that sad that a woman who has never really experienced this still has to live in fear of it happening? Well, on that note, isn’t it ridiculous that women have to worry about this happening to them period?
To the men who have responded; there is a huge difference between an innocent compliment and a perverted cat call, or insult, or whatever the hell else these pigs like to throw out. It’s one thing to say “You look nice” or “I like your hairdo.” Even if you don’t know someone, these are innocent compliments which anyone can give/receive. However, men feel this privilege to talk about a woman’s body like they own it, like they can do whatever they want to it, whenever they want, with whomever. It makes me so sick. And yes, men face victimization as well, but NOT THE SAME KIND. Men face victimization concerning robbery or assault. Women face victimization in different ways, which are often more subtle but have complex social phenomena behind them, like how we are taught to “just ignore this issue because it’s basically a right that males have and there’s nothing we can really do about it” and all of this other bullshit. We have to deal with this shit on a daily basis, multiple times a day. We have to ignore other women being objectified, sexualized, and victimized in many different ways all around us, becuase if we don’t (if we called men out on this bullshit) we’d be labeled as crazy or bitches or FEMINIST DYKES (all misogynists favorite word, right?)
Anyway, back to the compliment v. harassment issue; as stated above, even a compliment itself carries with it a type of entitlement. A genuine compliment from someone who knows you, who actually has some sort of basis for saying it, is great. But even an innocent compliment of “You look great” is exerting male privilege; this man doesn’t know how you normally look (unless he’s stalking you), has no basis to compare it to (unless comparing it to other women in general, which in itself is an insult to women), and men very rarely use such mild language even for an “innocent compliment”. Most of these are along hte lines of “You have a great ass” or “You look so fine” or some other bullshit, which fits the harassment category. Futhermore, I know very few honest men that would walk up to a complete stranger who is a female and give them a compliment just to be kind or make them smile. If you truly think someone is beautiful, that’s fine. Just think it. Don’t feel the need to tell a woman how “hot” she is because (1)I REALLY doubt that she gives a fuck and (2) I’m even more sure that she doesn’t want ot hear it. If a woman is what most people consider beautiful, she knows it. She receives social messages all the time reflecting her “attractiveness”. She doesn’t need you, of all people, to tell her that.
Back to the harassment issue, I’m glad this thread is here, very nice. I must say that I wish there were bigger things that could be done to call men out on their creepy, ridiculous behaviors, but this is a nice baby step towards larger social change, and a nice way to share to empower yourself and other women. Thanks for sharing.
Some thoughts on this.
Firstly, a lot of people on this thread seem to be advocating handling this sort of situation the way thinking girl did, I:e starting with a passive response (ignore the guy and hope he goes away) and then escalating to an agressive respose (chew him out). While I’m not critiszing TG for this reaction, since I wasn’t there and am thus unable to judge the circumstances involved., I question the effecacy of this tactic in general for several reasons.
The first response, passivity, basicly leaves the guy two options- give up, or do what he did, which was increase his attempts to get her attention. Also, this response leaves many people who experience it feeling invaidated, which re-inforces counterproductive belifes (women are just bitches, ect) which I’m not in any way trying to defend, merely point out the vicious cycle involved. I’ll return to this point later.
The second response, aggerssion, triggers the fight or flight response. At this point, any effective comunication goes out of the window, and the best you can hope for is that the guy retrats with his tail between his legs. While this may be satifying, it doesn’t do a lot to help the overall problem, unless the offender racks up enough negative experiences to modify his behaviour. What is more likly to happen is that he fires back an emotional respose of his own , and you end up in a half hour slagging match until someone else intevenes or the situation escalate to physical violence.
As an alternative, I would advocate an assertive response:
simply stop, face the offender and calmy tell him “I’m not inerested. Please leave me alone.” This will weed out the ones who are merely stupid rather than malicious, and fufil the desire expressed on this thread to “call men on their behaviour” in a constructive manner that has a much greater chance of actually doing some good.
Reading back over this post, I can tell it’s not going to be popular. My intent here is merely to point out a technique that I belive will be effective in meeting your goals, both on a tactical level ( dealing with individual insances of street harassment) and a stratigic one ( changing society so that the undesirable behavor ceases)
As an important caveat to the above, if you genuinely feel that you are in physical danger from a street haraser, you should be running, or if your assesment of the situation is that you can’t get away, physicly defending yourself.
On a more philosophical note, I would like to suggest a couple of thought experiments.
Firstly Thinking Girl would you have acted differently if the sexual element was not present I.E if it had been say, a homeless person following you down the street asking for change?
I suspect that you would have been a bit more communicative ( ” sorry I don’t have any”) before losing your temper, but am interested in your response.
Secondly, put yourself in the offenders shoes for a moment. How would you feel if you approaced a strange man on the street and he ignored you? Let’s remove the sexual element again and say that you have a good reason for approaching him. How would you feel if after half a block of this treatment, he turned and shouted at you?
The reason I ask this question is not to defend this behavour, since you’re right, it is unacceptable, but merely to foster understanding. If you want to change a pattern of behaviour it helps to understand it.
actually, shoutybloke, i don’t think that’s a bad suggestion at all. if, that is, the woman being followed or harassed or otherwise intimidated thought that a) she could actually do this, considering she is likely afraid of him to some degree and b) he would actually respond well and not become aggressive or violent. the nice thing about the ignore is that it confirms the fact that no man has a right to the attention of a woman he doesn’t even know, and it is arrogant and brimming full of privilege to think that he does. if a man actually has a reason to approach a woman, you know, other than stroking his own ego or trying to intimidate her, then polite is the only way to go – not “hey baby, i’m not going to hurt you”. do men not get that politeness goes a long way? but then, since they think they are actually being positive and complimentary, i guess politeness doesn’t matter so much.
as for your thought experiments, a) yes, I probably would have behaved the same way if it was a homeless man following me, because homeless men are still men, and I was raised to avoid and be afraid of strange men who follow me in the street. if it was a homeless woman, I would probably not have the same response, but then, I wouldn’t really be afraid of a homeless woman raping me. I might be afraid of a homeless woman who was acting aggressively, due to my experience with many homeless being mentally ill or addicted to drugs, and thus unpredictable. but the response would likely not be the same, no.
b) seriously? shitty comparison. to put myself in that guy’s shoes i would have to have an entire lifetime of social institutions backing me up and telling me that it’s appropriate and good to approach strange men in the street for no good reason, and that I am somehow deserving of their attention and time, and that they will likely respond to me because they have been trained to respond to me and “be nice” or otherwise they are scared and intimidated by me thanks to a vast history of my social group’s oppression, exploitation, and violence towards his social group.
I’m all for understanding, but I’m not the one who doesn’t understand in this situation. I understand the intricacies of these kinds of exchanges just fine. especially considering that they happen all the time. i actually don’t know a single woman that this kind of thing has not happened to. not one. that means a hell of a lot of men are engaging in this unacceptable behaviour. they are the ones who need to get some perspective – not me.
Hi – I wrote my master’s thesis on street harassment last year. A small part of my research recently got recognized in a CNN article (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/05/14/lw.catcalls/index.html)and as a result of the comments and blog entries that it spurred, I created my own anti-street harassment website about 2 weeks ago. It’s still a work in progress, but there are a lot of resources, interviews with anti-street harassment activists, suggested strategies for dealing with street harassment, some “soundbytes” from my research, and a companion blog where people can share their stories. I’m just now trying to get the word out and a google search led me to this entry on your blog, so I’m sharing! http://www.stopstreetharassment.com/
Thanks,
hollykearl
A bit late on this one…been googling away and found this site. Great blog. Have had a year’s break from feminism – sort of – due to health probs (probably caused by years of misogyny anyway). I could not handle the anger but here I am back now!
Having seen both sides of street harrassment ie, I was subject to it when younger ,and now am no longer as I’m probably “too old” for the visual and sexual requirements of the entitled male species, I would like to offer this perspective.
You start to notice when the attention starts to diminish, every year, it gets just a bit less. At first, (I) started to be a bit bothered by this. “OMG, I’m not as attractive as I used to be!!” Then, femi-voice kicks in – “now, your beliefs really are being challenged aren’ they?”
So, what ageing does to a feminist is to really force you to look at if you really believe that it does not matter what men think of you sexually.
I have tussled with one side of me going for anti-ageing creams and dyeing my hair, to the other side that still has that anger at being considered only good for one thing to men. I realized that I had been so conditioned to being eye-candy to men that I would probalby never get rid of the conditioning.
The only thing I can do is be conscious of the years of this conditioning, and realizing that actually, being pretty (and young) only ever brought me a lot of fuckin grief.
So, next time you are harrassed in the street, think about what you will be thinking when it stops happening. The fact that it even stops and is conspicuous by it’s absence is damning evidence in itself, that the way men think of women is in purely objectified terms.
And, the issue of rape or assualt (which I have been a victim of many times in the past), think of it like this: a man will rape, harrass, and assault a younger attractive girl/woman probably because he hates the fact that she is unobtainable to him and he wants her, and also he wants to exert his male entitlement over her.
When he does this to an older female (this is a bit of a generalisation), some of the above may apply, but he is also likely expressing his hatred of her audicity to not conform to his requirements.
so, younger fems, please don’t block out what older fems are saying – they have a lot of experience and lifetimes of what you are facing now, and even when disagreements arise, younger fems will no doubt be facing what they see as differences of perspective when they are older, and will probalby have drawn the same conclusions as us older ones are trying to convey now to the younger fems.
Shit, did that last bit make sense??
I am sure I will click “submit” and think of something else to say, but that’ll do for now!
Apols for any typos!
ps……I knew it! Just one more thing as Columbo would say….
keep up the fight…you’re doing a great job (addressed to the owner of blog and also any fems who may be reading).